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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

Jim Audiomisc said:
At some point people will have to face up to the reality that the longer we delay adopting real Green policies, the worse things will get *regardless* of any other policies or beliefs of politicians, etc. It is already close to being a looming disaster.
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Given time a true democracy would end up closing the tax loopholes and money-laundering scams that allow these offshore propaganda operations to function. The likes of Murdoch, Mail, Express, Telegraph couldn’t exist without a fundamentally corrupt tax system, and that comes back to the same Tory elite and their gerrymandering.

The only two logical options are to remove elite rule by installing a fair and fully accountable representative democracy, or by violent revolution. At this point I still favour the former!

FWIW I do think it is possible. I’ve believed in electoral reform all my voting life. I grew up in a Tory safe seat, and I realised right from the start that my vote was a total waste of my time/insult to my intelligence. It has been interesting seeing public opinion catch up over the past 40+ years. The penny is certainly dropping. People now get it. Even something as slow-moving and cucked to the Tory establishment as the Labour Party passed electoral reform at Conference a couple of years ago. It is only the treachery and cowardly establishment sycophancy of Starmer that has taken it off the table again. The idea is certainly gaining momentum.
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
At some point people will have to face up to the reality that the longer we delay adopting real Green policies, the worse things will get *regardless* of any other policies or beliefs of politicians, etc. It is already close to being a looming disaster.
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This really is the point, the existential crisis is our Environmental.

Everything else has to hang off of that fundamental point.
 
Tony L said:
The only two logical options are to remove elite rule by installing a fair and fully accountable representative democracy, or by violent revolution. At this point I still favour the former!

<snip> Even something as slow-moving and cucked to the Tory establishment as the Labour Party passed electoral reform at Conference a couple of years ago. It is only the treachery and cowardly establishment sycophancy of Starmer that has taken it off the table again. The idea is certainly gaining momentum.
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Until the wealthy and powerful start to believe violent revolution is likely, we won’t get the opportunity of properly representative democracy. So we have to convince them that we are serious about one. Saying ‘I prefer not’ won’t get us there.
 
paulfromcamden said:
They won't and there's a good chance it's already too late.

Not a very comforting conclusion but based on the evidence of how as a species we're entirely unwilling to change our behaviour - even if it makes the planet uninhabitable - it's the only one I can reach.
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I regret that you may well be correct. Although I would qualify the "our behaviour" to mean behavour propagadised by those who gain lots of wealth, etc, from 'business as usual' and running what is in essence propaganda to mislead people more generally.

Sadly, a big contributor to this is the way most people have no real understanding of science, maths, etc, and how it can test our belief systems and show when they are b00110x. Bolstered by many publications of claims that present as denying Climate Change, which when checked are actually twddle or greenwash. Also, FWIW, the promotions of 'new nuclear' as a solution, not an added source of problems we have no way as yet to fix. But big business has to 'big business', dunnit!
 
les24preludes said:
There's the Stupid Tory Party. There's the Stupid Labour Party. And there's the Stupid UK electorate. All blind to the future and just plain stupid. Stupid people elect stupid politicians. It never ends, but a sustainable climate is going to end soon. That's one thing that is certain.
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Substitute 'propagadised and deterred from learning how to learn'.
 
It is becoming increasingly clear to me that we live in a sophisticated autocracy without the long term advantages of autocracy's like Russia or China.
We convince ourselves that we are free because we rearrange the three or four chairs we have every few years.
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
Substitute 'propagadised and deterred from learning how to learn'.
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Sure, that's part of it. But humans are very poor at predicting the future. They smoke, drink and get fat while at the same time wanting to live as long lives as possible. They know the science but ignore it because they just can't adjust their behaviour from present gratification to future benefits. They just can't or don't want to see what the future holds for them individually or collectively.

And the same is true for politicians, including the witless and pathetic Starmer and all the Tories. Even Boris had significantly more input on climate action than Starmer.
 
les24preludes said:
Sure, that's part of it. But humans are very poor at predicting the future. They smoke, drink and get fat while at the same time wanting to live as long lives as possible. They know the science but ignore it because they just can't adjust their behaviour from present gratification to future benefits. They just can't or don't want to see what the future holds for them individually or collectively.

And the same is true for politicians, including the witless and pathetic Starmer and all the Tories. Even Boris had significantly more input on climate action than Starmer.
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Our brains also like to pay attention to threats/fear/danger.
 
Labour [also] will not commit to the government's £4bn expansion of free childcare, the shadow education secretary has said.
Bridget Phillipson has commissioned a review of the scheme, which would see eligible parents in England get 30 free hours of childcare by September 2025.

www.bbc.co.uk

Childcare: Labour will not commit to government's free childcare plan, says Bridget Phillipson

Bridget Phillipson tells the BBC the £4bn plan is a "mess" and calls for wider reform of provision.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
les24preludes said:
Very much so - but in the words of action films, that seems to apply to "clear and present danger".
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As you inferred we tend to focus on the here and now but we are also often scared/resistant to change, especially big changes. The difficult trick is to get a majority of voters on-side and open to significant and costly change (which in Green terms will ironically only get costlier and more significant the longer we wait). This 'challenge' is currently in the hands of our politicians and at a time when right-wing Populism is having another 15 minutes i.e. people who want to put a brake on change and/or go backwards. Juncker puts its it another way, “we all know what to do. But we don’t know how to get re-elected once we have done it.” Maybe the Greens need to hire Cummings if a billionaire is unwilling to step up.
 
Kirk said:
As you inferred we tend to focus on the here and now but we are also often scared/resistant to change, especially big changes. The difficult trick is to get a majority of voters on-side and open to significant and costly change (which in Green terms will ironically only get costlier and more significant the longer we wait). This 'challenge' is currently in the hands of our politicians and at a time when right-wing Populism is having another 15 minutes i.e. people who want to put a brake on change and/or go backwards. Juncker puts its it another way, “we all know what to do. But we don’t know how to get re-elected once we have done it.” Maybe the Greens need to hire Cummings if a billionaire is unwilling to step up.
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Maybe some people need to think about what they’re voting for?
 
Kirk said:
Juncker puts its it another way, “we all know what to do. But we don’t know how to get re-elected once we have done it.”
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That's certainly a big part in why no meaningful action is being taken. But this is unforgivable political egoism when so much is at stake. The world desperately needs charismatic leaders that will get populations on side for change that they are going to find difficult. The alternative is knee-jerk reactions when the climate really starts getting out of control and doing nothing is more scary that losing our creature comforts.
 
les24preludes said:
That's certainly a big part in why no meaningful action is being taken. But this is unforgivable political egoism when so much is at stake. The world desperately needs charismatic leaders that will get populations on side for change that they are going to find difficult. The alternative is knee-jerk reactions when the climate really starts getting out of control and doing nothing is more scary that losing our creature comforts.
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Why rely on charismatic leaders to tell us how to vote?
 
We need politicians (collectively) with the political gravitas to carry political arguments. That comes from gaining support and trust from the electorate!
 
les24preludes said:
Good question - I know how to vote, Green every time. But that doesn't seem to apply to the electorate in general. I think they need a lot of help.
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The problem is voting for people rather than principles. If principles are the driver, we don’t need charismatics, we need organisers.
 
les24preludes said:
Good question - I know how to vote, Green every time. But that doesn't seem to apply to the electorate in general. I think they need a lot of help.
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The problem here is that the message from those with wealth and power is to dismiss/delay green changes - because they will affect their wealth and power. Since they also tend to own or, ahem, 'guide' the commercial media....
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
The problem here is that the message from those with wealth and power is to dismiss/delay green changes - because they will affect their wealth and power. Since they also tend to own or, ahem, 'guide' the commercial media....
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The wealthy have plenty of food and air conditioning to kill the heat. Show me a poor politician....

But the working class and those even poorer have neither air-con nor all the food they need. Maybe sooner or later another revolution? Where's the likely place for it to start? Maybe within the ruling parties - could the Corbynites re-emerge?
 
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