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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V

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I’ll be very interested to see how Labour react to the Tories’ hateful far-right Nationality And Borders Bill which will clearly place the UK in breach of international law (London Economic).

Also note the absolute state authoritarianism regarding internet anonymity later in the article. I realised Brexit was going to erode human rights and civil liberties, I suspected that was mainly what it was for, but I had no idea we’d be level with China and Iran quite so fast.

PS I am fully expecting Labour to at best abstain from both. It wouldn’t surprise me if they voted with the government, even whipped for it.
 
It is absolutely horrific and a step beyond even the now long-established Tory/Labour culture of allowing our mentally ill to freeze to death in shop doorways. I fear this trajectory hugely as I suspect it is a very deliberate and calculated strategy of dehumanisation and normalising state cruelty towards ‘others’ in advance of the impending climate catastrophe which will inevitably lead to mass global migration. Set the basic parameters now as billions will be on the move over the next 30 years.


You had better hope someone solves nuclear fusion soon, because unless they do there is no chance of hitting CO2 targets and everything starts to look like a more dystopian version of “Children Of Men”.
 
Yes, the Amess murder will unquestionably be used as a weapon by the right to shut-down free speech and ramp-up authoritarianism. Priti Patel was on Sky only a few moments ago muttering something about internet censorship and other measures. It is sickening that this murder is already being used as a political tool by the Tories with Labour as a willing lapdog. It is going to push us even further away from our basic freedoms.

Overall, I agree. However some caution is needed wrt one point. The meaning and implimentation of what you call "censorship".

It seems correct and reasonable to me to "censor" hate speech, incitement to violence, etc. It should not appear on the (anti-)social media without consequences for the originator AND the (anti-)social media company who fail to exclude it. The companies who feed off it ''drawing eyeballs' to the ads which accompany it should not be able to find this 'profitable', but should be a problem *they* have to enagage in preventing.

The (anti-)media companies have colossal incomes and make stupendous profits. Which all too often then dodge tax, etc. They really should not be allowed to go on doing this under cover of them bleating about "freedom of speech" and hiring shills like ex-Liberal-leaders to act as human shields.

Finding that some cases are hard to call can't be an excuse for allowing so much blatent hate-speech, calls for violence, etc. Nor can a quasi-religeous approach to "freedom of speech".

One person's claimed 'inalienable right' to swing their fist ends a few mm away from anyone else's face. if someone does wrong, we don't let yobs lynch them from a tree. We use the police, law, and courts.
 
You had better hope someone solves nuclear fusion soon, because unless they do there is no chance of hitting CO2 targets and everything starts to look like a more dystopian version of “Children Of Men”.

Sadly, I think you are likely to be correct. Although personally I now think fusion *may* be closer than we've expected as new approachs have started to be explored by companies.

However as someone who has a central heating system that has stopped working, I think they may be too late for my current problems! 8-/
 
The (anti-)media companies have colossal incomes and make stupendous profits. Which all too often then dodge tax, etc. They really should not be allowed to go on doing this under cover of them bleating about "freedom of speech" and hiring shills like ex-Liberal-leaders to act as human shields.

I have zero issue with a profit motive and I tend to trust it far above enforced political ideology, and that is the real choice here. On no planet is Facebook, Twitter, Whatsapp etc seeking legal absolution for tipping refugees into the English Channel, attacking democracy protestors in Hong Kong with riot battens and shutting down their press, barrel bombing civilians in Syria, hanging LGBT folk in Iran etc etc, and an internet entirely beyond the control of such fascism is the best defence we have against this shit. We absolutely need to keep people like Johnson, Patel, Starmer, Trump, Putin etc etc away from the most important, free and open communication platforms humanity has at present. I have absolutely zero trust in UK “democracy” as it now spirals down into the very worst of alt-right bigotry, hate and state control. Whatever they block and monitor I will find a way around. I will not enforce non-anonymity here on pfm, I absolutely refuse to, and I will move the site elsewhere in the world if the UK becomes a police state that demands it.
 
I didn’t want to put it on the David Amess thread, but Angela Rayner’s ‘tory scum’ comment will turn out to be hugely damaging to Labour. We can argue about whether or not she had a point, but these comments should not have been made by a deputy party leader.

It just makes Labour even more unelectable in the eyes of the wavering Tory voter. Idiotic.

The right conclusion but it will lost on the intolerant left.
 
I have zero issue with a profit motive .

I also have "zero issue" with a "profit motive". But I don't regard that as a justfication for theft, or profit derived from the misery and exploitation of others. Hence it depends on *how* that "profit" is obtained. The "profit motive" can't excuse activites like extortion, pushing heroin, etc. So the issue is what method is used to gain the "profit" and what damage it may do to indivuiduals or society.

The reality is that - along with much 'good' - the (anti-)social media are also amplifying a lot of 'harm' and shrugging off any responsibilty.

Hence what you say does not excuse or justify what is happening.
 
Hence what you say does not excuse or justify what is happening.

It certainly does. We live in an increasingly authoritarian right-wing non-democracy that is currently attempting to restrict our rights to free communication. You appear to be welcoming that as you don’t personally like the global media choices that have become the most dominant. You need to think very carefully before allowing authoritarian entities like the Tory or Labour party to police the way we communicate with one another. I will fight to keep my choices options open with everything I have as the trajectory is increasingly clear.
 
So what you say justifies *anything* anyone does to make a "profit" including telling lies that inflame others to commit acts of violence, intimidation, pushing drugs that damage lives, etc, etc?

If so, presumably you would also remove all existing laws wrt slander, libel, hate-speech, etc, etc,

Note before replying that you are trying to extend what I've said to things you know perfectly well I do NOT mean. But we in the UK do have laws wrt slander, hate-speech, etc. The problem is that the big companies you are essentialy defending ignore them.

Rather that to make this entirely absolutist "all or nothing" I'm trying to point out that in any society we do need to set limits. It it then a matter of ensuring this is done democratically on an informed and rational basis. And these limits then modified in the light of experience and changes in circumstances.

The problem is that both many of the the UK newspapers, and the big 'social media' companies do what they like, regardless, and get away with it. For their "profit" in terms of cash and influence over the rest of us.
 
Guess which group of voters Starmer is most popular with...

FCDedDfWQAIrd86


Makes sense as many Lib-Dem voters are, in my experience, disproportionately influenced by optics (looking "prime ministerial") and Starmer still does OK on that score.

Problem is that's a small pool and Labour won't be getting many additional voters from it in 2024.
 
I’d have though LD voters were amongst the least likely to flip to Labour in seats Labour need to target. All the stats I’ve looked at suggest the LDs are holding their own voterbase and taking some moderate Tories (hopefully some Tory seats). I suspect the real fight is Tory/Lab within the tabloid gammon demographics, as it always is, and those stats don’t look especially encouraging there. I guess it is a tiny sample-group as I’ve seen other stats that suggest the ‘ex-red wall’ is suffering buyer’s remorse to quite a large degree.
 
I don’t have any issue with that, but that isn’t what either Patel or Nandy were implying today. They were both laying into social media platforms and arguing for censorship as I understood it. As far as I’m concerned if someone sends a death or rape threat to Diane Abbott or whoever then the police should act against that person. The platform is blameless. It is no different to the air transmitting sound between people if the same threat was made in real life.

To put it another way if terrorist organisations such as Britain First, EDL, Al Quada etc utilise Facebook to spread their hatred then go after them, not the platform. To do otherwise is like blaming the supplier of the mic or PA system for the racial hatred at a KKK rally. Just dumb and an obvious excuse for the state to ramp up authoritarianism, monitor and shut down any criticism, accountability or dissent. We should not give the state this power. It moves us yet another step closer to China, Iran etc.

I agree in theory about social media platforms so long as they make an real effort to self-police. You and the mod team do that here. Offensive crap is usually removed from PFM quickly after it is noticed. Can the same be said about Facebook, Twitter, and the rest? I do not see them as blameless.

I would not like to see any state government actively policing/censoring internet content. But I don’t feel the same about states establishing appropriate regulations, if only so all social media platforms have a level playing field. That’s already been done in Europe with respect to data privacy. I think it is only a matter of time before regs are established for content as well. Wouldn’t be too bothered by a law requiring social media platforms to expunge hate speech within 24 hours of identification or face fines. Might be just the incentive they need to do a better job of self-policing.
 
Wouldn’t be too bothered by a law requiring social media platforms to expunge hate speech within 24 hours of identification or face fines. Might be just the incentive they need to do a better job of self-policing.

The problem is you then need to define “hate speech” and relate any such local definition to a truly global platform. The term would likely mean any anti-government/pro-democracy sentiment in China, Hong Kong, Iran, Syria etc, any pro-LGBT content in religious dictatorships etc. I keep coming back to the hard cold fact that many nations on this planet are murderous tyrannies be they fascist, communist, religious or any combination thereof. I’d prefer to keep our communication infrastructure well above such local insanity as it can save lives and speak truth to power.

I have questions regarding the algorithmic selection of content (echo chambers etc), but beyond that I believe very much in free speech even if I fundamentally disagree with the content. In fairness I do see real movement on say Facebook on this aspect. We really need to think way beyond petty nationalism/authoritarianism and allow free global discourse. I do not respect Preti Patel’s “authority” over this aspect of modern life any more than I respect any other dictatorship.

PS As an example I utterly detest the UK’s various right-wing racist tabloids. They are fascistic shit aimed at the pigshit ignorant, but I argue to expose their lies, starve them of advertising revenue and strangle their businesses model, not to shut them down by state force. I am both anti-authoritarian and anti-fascist, so those are the tools on the table!
 
The problem is you then need to define “hate speech” and relate any such local definition to a truly global platform.

The more basic step we require is to treat the internet 'media' companies as publishers. That makes them responsible for overseeing the content that they publish. It's no good them bleating that they aren't, and can't. They simply make too much money for that to wash. Once that is done we can decide how different we accept them as being compared with newspapers, magazines, books, etc. In the end, details then get set by case law in court.

In all practical senses, the UK has always had laws governing what it would be judged illegal or damaging to publish.
 
The more basic step we require is to treat the internet 'media' companies as publishers. That makes them responsible for overseeing the content that they publish. It's no good them bleating that they aren't, and can't. They simply make too much money for that to wash. Once that is done we can decide how different we accept them as being compared with newspapers, magazines, books, etc. In the end, details then get set by case law in court.

In all practical senses, the UK has always had laws governing what it would be judged illegal or damaging to publish.

You either fundamentally misunderstand the difference between a communications medium and a publisher, or you are deeply authoritarian and actively seek to blur that distinction in order to control free speech (as do both the Conservatives and Labour).

Again the internet including social media platforms are the equivalent of a telephone or PA system. They are just a device, a tool. If content they host is criminal, e.g. child abuse, far right racist entities such as Britain First, EDL etc then go after these. They are the ones breaking the law (and almost always the AUP of the platforms).

To put it another way if our right-wing authoritarian politics (both parties are the same) gets its way and fully outlaws internet anonymity folk like me will find themselves on the wrong side of police state law and really have no options as there is no way in hell I can vet, authenticate and police 30,000 user accounts even if I wanted to, which I fundamentally don’t as a matter of principle.

You really need to put your personal agenda against companies such as Facebook, Twitter etc to one side and look at a far bigger picture here. To my eyes this is the authoritarian political right (and yes, I certainly include Labour in that) attempting to grasp control of the way people communicate in the 21st century. Thankfully these big companies have all been through this shit before in other authoritarian states like China, Iran, Russia etc and have the legal resources to fight it and keep basic freedom of speech alive. They are also based in the USA which has a far better set of human rights legislation than most nations. It is the small independent companies here that will suffer as no way in hell do we have the ability or funding to fight this.

PS On edit this reads far, far more aggressively than I intend, and I apologise for that. I just can’t find the right language to make the basic points, which I believe to be true, and turn it down a notch! I really do see this as a political erosion of basic freedom and liberty. A politics that in no way represents me trying to monitor, control and censor those whom they do not agree with.
 
You either fundamentally misunderstand the difference between a communications medium and a publisher, or you are deeply authoritarian and actively seek to blur that distinction in order to control free speech (as do both the Conservatives and Labour).

Again the internet including social media platforms are the equivalent of a telephone or PA system. They are just a device, a tool.

You really need to put your personal agenda against companies such as Facebook, Twitter etc to one side and look at a far bigger picture here.

PS On edit this reads far, far more aggressively than I intend, and I apologise for that. I just can’t find the right language to make the basic points, which I believe to be true, and turn it down a notch!

Yes, a lot of what you wrote simply comes across as "go for the man, not the ball". I'd suggest this shows a weakness in the basis of your argument and views.

The relevant companies have *already* implicitly accepted that they have a role in removing harmful content, etc. They'vre accepted a need to moderate and remove content.

So even *they* show signs of being aware that their old defence of "nothing to do with me, guv" no longer washes. Alas, they seem to regard this as a token activity, and given their actual resources, do very little and fail to stem the sheer scale of the problems then facilitate for money.

I have no 'personal agenda' with the companies as I haven't ever used them. I also happily accept they play a valuable role in many ways by connecting people for *positive* communications - e.g. to help undermine dictatorships, etc.

But doing good doesn't excuse also enabling bad and failing to deal with that when you clearly have the ability to bring vast resources to bear on that distinction.

Nor can we as societies be 'a bit pregnant'. If we have rules governing slander, threats, etc, for what appears in newspapers, books, on stage, in speeches, etc. Then it makes sense to have equivalent ones for online discource. The real question there is a practical one. How to bring those rules to bear when the process is provided by someone outwith your state.

To my mind the best way is probably though their wallets. i.e. if we as a society decide some of what they enable is objectionable we should be able to take away some of the income they derive from out society. In practice that may mean dealing with those in-country who fund the adverts, etc. i.e. impact the revenue stream for the eyeballs.

In general I don't care what kind of badge someone wears or if it says "politician", or "businessman" or "billionaire geek". Nor between the 'letters' page of a newspaper and 'social media'.

The same standards should be applied to when they do what we regard as good and what they do that does harm. And the more capable/wealthy they are as a result of those actions, the more we should expect in terms of dealing with the problems.

In any civilised society the "untrammled right to swing your fist" ends just before it hits someone else's nose. Violate that, and you need a good reason which can then be judged according to law, etc.

No system is perfect, but that doesn't excuse not bothering.

cf #1973 -> You, Tony, remove objectionable items here. These big media companies have vast resources, they can and should do the equivalent. If not, then in the end the Law *will* step in, like it or not.
 
You, Tony, remove objectionable items here. These big media companies have vast resources, they can and should do the equivalent. If not, then in the end the Law *will* step in, like it or not.

Yes, I do, and I do so in a very political manner as I am an anti-nationalist/fascist, anti-racist, I believe strongly in LGBT rights, environmentalism etc. I am under zero obligation to provide free speech and anyone who doesn’t like the way I run my site can sling their hook as far as I’m concerned. I just don’t want or need their money. As such there is no comparison between a platform like pfm and the larger social media platforms who have some responsibility to facilitate actual free speech and impartiality of moderation.

I think the main area your argument falls down is that by your own admission you have never used any of these platforms. I do regularly and would consider them neutral as they are designed to reflect the user’s tastes and preferences back to them. My Facebook stream is jammed full of pictures of TD-124s, vintage Quad, Leak, Tannoy etc, new music announcements plus content from my friends and relatives. The only political content I see is Led By Donkeys, Cold War Steve and the Good Law project as I have blocked all political content beyond this. I do not see anything from Farage, the Tories, Labour, I do not see anything from Momentum, trade unions etc, likewise the Daily Mail, Sun, Mirror, Telegraph etc. I control what I see.

As I keep on saying it is just a communication medium, nothing more. A lot of the argument being presented above comes over as someone trying to draw an elephant based on what they read as a description in a politicised press piece. That or blaming air for being the main transmission medium at a KKK rally. If you want to control racism or hate speech outlaw the entities that exist to spread it.

To put it another way I view Facebook as politically neutral, it is all things to all users, whereas say the Express, Sun or Mail are inherently fascist/racist and exist purely to sew lies, division and hatred in the interests of their wealthy right-wing owners and the UK political establishment. Facebook is just a fancy modern telephone in comparison. It just connects people with like-minded people. That obviously encompasses all political opinion.
 
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To put it another way I view Facebook as politically neutral, it is all things to all users, whereas say the Express, Sun or Mail are inherently fascist/racist and exist purely to sew lies, division and hatred in the interests of their wealthy right-wing owners and the UK political establishment. Facebook is just a fancy modern telephone in comparison. It just connects people with like-minded people. That obviously encompasses all political opinion.
Facebook is definitely not politically neutral. I follow Another Angry Voice's page* and, despite tweaking my Facebook settings many times to prioritise it, it hardly ever comes up in my feed. Facebook is, in effect, unilaterally deciding that this is extreme content that ought to be downgraded. Thomas Clarke, the owner of the page, has written to Facebook about this many times, but it keeps happening.

*To elaborate: I found AAV's page an essential source of sanity during the 2017 election campaign. Since then, I'd say it's become more repetitive, and the quality has dropped, but it's still helpful to see it occasionally, and it is emphatically not an extremist account.

Just one example, of course, but it does make me wonder how actively Facebook intervenes to restrict the range of views it pushes.
 
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