Seanm
pfm Member
Left too, sadly: Owen Jones and others have condemned the tweet and called for people to back Steve Turner for GS.
Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV
- Thread starter droodzilla
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droodzilla
pfm Member
Yeah spotted that. Don't know what the beef is between Turner and Beckett.
Please don't tell me the left is going screw up again and field two candidates.
Tony L
Administrator
It is just unbelievably stupid language. Similar to using words ‘fascism’, ‘apartheid’ etc to describe Israel, any number of highly offensive terms to describe Muslims etc. Anyone being paid the sort of salary of an MP, let alone a trade union fat-cat, should have the intellectual ability to pick their words with far more care and make their point in a credible and articulate manner. Idiots that choose such reactionary trigger language ends up taking the whole topic out of contention, e.g. this story is now about some irrelevant trade union baron few have ever even heard of, not the Conservative Party’s institutional racism, which is very real indeed and has caused untold misery to huge numbers of people.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
You're on the wrong side here Tony. Of course it was a bit clumsy but everyone knew what he meant. It was a marvellous victory to prevent the taking of two men, against an army of police, riot vans, horses, the works.
Seanm
pfm Member
That’s happening. Don’t know what the consequences will be, haven’t been following. Too depressing.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
The thing to bear in mind here is cui bono? There is no evidence that fraudulent voting is prevalent in the UK, but plenty of evidence that requiring ID will
'And then he had to go and spoil it all by saying something stupid'
'And then he had to go and spoil it all by saying something stupid'
Tony L
Administrator
There is no room in modern politics for ‘a bit clumsy but everyone knew what he meant’, that sort of mistake always allows the story to be shifted from the core topic to the delivery/personality of the teller. Labour really should have figured this out by now. Being right is never enough, they have to be bright and articulate too or everything will be deflected to be about them and a genuinely criminal Conservative Party will continue their land-grab unscathed. It happens time and again.
droodzilla
pfm Member
For which he quickly apologised and deleted the tweet. The suspension is over the top and is a factional manoeuvre. It's using racism as a political football in the most cynical and disgusting manner.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
You have to actively choose to take it literally.
droodzilla
pfm Member
lordsummit
Moderator
The tweet is crass though. You simply cannot suggest that a British person of a differing heritage should be deported. Whether intentional or not it reeks of racism. The trouble with social media is you can’t take the words back after you’ve said them as it’s out there. Priti Patel may indeed be the most loathsome of all the loathsome cabinet, but saying what he did has completely focussed the story on Labour and not on her actions. Trying to excuse it is wrong. Until Labour grasp this and stop shooting ourselves in the foot at every available opportunity we’ll never get near forming a government. I genuinely do despair.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
I sometimes think we are in danger of ascribing too much 'insider knowledge' and too much detailed interest in politics. to 'yer average' voter. In my view.. Labour's problems are far more about broad message and image. The Tories don't allow themselves to be drawn on detail... quickly shut down discussion of misdemeanour.. in the knowledge that most have very short memories, and relentlessly churn out mostly 3 word soundbytes. It works.
I've been discussing Labour's woes on another site.with a chap who despises the Tories but is also very scathing on Labour...
I shall now hide...
I've been discussing Labour's woes on another site.with a chap who despises the Tories but is also very scathing on Labour...
XXXX
This is rather the point I’m making. How can there be an effective opposition when those opposing are so weak and virtually unseen?
Mull: Yes. I get that, but I didn't want to cover it in the post in question.
Incidentally.. yes.. I know that you understand the meaning of 'Hegemonic', but I like to think that our discussions attract an audience of more than two..
XXXX
I want to see him taken to task in the house, I want to see someone stand up to him and give as good as they get. Spouting a set piece then sitting there like a schoolboy being lectured and told off is not opposition.
Mull: Agreed. If I recall Starmer was seen as a cross between a 'safe pair of hands'..and frankly, a sop to the party Right.
XXXX
The Tories ‘obviously’ dodgy agenda is only obvious to Big Issue sellers and a man with a dog on a string. A bit flippant but you get the gist. It’s obviously not obvious to those who sit opposite or they would try tackling the points we’re talking about.
Mull: This mystifies me. It's one thing for the 'yer average voter' not to see this stuff coming..or to recognise the danger it poses to our already fragile democracy... but it's something else for the opposition not to see it. I suspect they see it very clearly but regard it as a bit too esoteric an argument to make at say.. PMQs.
I also get the strong impression that part of Labour's, or at least Starmer's 'strategy'....is to just wait and let Johnson et.al hang themselves. It's not going to happen ..precisely because people have short memories and can only see the vaccination programme and pubs opening.
XXXX
I’m not saying everything in the garden is coming up roses or that we don’t have serious issues. We do have food banks, we do have homeless but the majority don't see them and that's another topic.
Mull: It's not that. It's the way that the Tories so obviously and blatantly pick and choose which issues to 'fix'. Take the cladding issue for example. Why are they not pursuing those responsible? Why are they sitting back and allowing landlords etc.. to effectively bankrupt tenants? It's obvious to me.. it's because they simply will not take on their crooked friends and co-conspirators. So it will drag on for more years.. And yet they were able to move with lightning speed to pour money into some very ill advised responses to Covid. It all points one way. But.. back to Labour.. they really should be hammering these points home 24/7..over and over again.
XXXX
I seriously doubt they (electorate Sic.) want to hear about or discuss comrades, solidarity, class struggle, revolution etc.
I think you exaggerate. I was a Labour Party member.. a Trade Union Rep and a Parish Councillor... for years. I never heard tired old stuff like that from party members. I only heard such stuff from far left 'entryists' who tried to latch onto strike action I was involved in ..for e.g. in the Thatcher era.. and they mostly got told where to go.
It's true that some use the term 'comrades' at Labour Conference.. but it's a minor issue. It's history and tradition. Singing the Red Flag has as much connection to current reality as does singing the National Anthem. Both are archaic.
The Labour Party is a Democratic Party. (And throughout its history.. much more so that the Tory Party) It has never been interested in overthrowing the system..which would involve overthrowing Parliament and other elements of the State. At present.. the Tories are far more culpable in that regard.
'Class Struggle' is interesting. Sure.. the old Upper/Middle/Working class boundaries are blurred and changed... and for at least four decades a further 'underclass' has been recognised by those who analyse such things. But the fact remains that a small number of very wealthy people, born into privelege, are still calling the shots. And Johnson.. an all but talentless liar and wastrel.. is representative of the breed. I cannot understand why people fail to see this. Being relatively wealthy.. like some on here for e.g., really should not lead to voting Tory, because it will never secure any significant priveleges, or enable entry into that cabal.
So.. coming back again to the problem for Labour.
It's very difficult, because since Thatcher.. the Tories and their fellow travellers in the media.. have been very successful in convincing much of the electorate that Unions are evil and that Socialism is a dirty word. That is a long recognised phenomenon.
So. we have many in the population cheerfully voting against their own interests. And this is also a recognised phenomenon in 'democracies' World wide.
It's difficult to come up with easy answers.. but the first thing is that Labour need to STOP APOLOGISING!!! Labour has nothing to apologise for and has not been in power for 11 years.
Next essential is a 'coalition of the left'. I'd see that involving existing Labour, Greens, Lib Dems and anybody not Tory or Wannabe Facist/Racist/Xenophobic. The Tories have quietly formed a coalition with the right, including remnants of UKIP and assorted other far right groups. Time for the Left to do the same... There are more of us. we just need to get smarter.
Next up. A new name. I can't see it being a good idea to abandon 'Labour' completely.. but maybe 'Democratic Labour' Sadly, SDLP has been used and ruined.
We are in a different game here.. this one has Parliamentary Democracy in the UK as a prize.
I see that as quite important.
I shall now hide...
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Of course, he wasn't speaking for Labour in any capacity. Neither was it racist. He was saying, figuratively, that she should have a taste of her own medicine. As I say it was clumsy at worst. There's too much boy who cried wolf in all this from people who don't ever stand up to racism and probably support forced repatriation.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
It only goes to prove Joe's Golden Rule for Politicians: Don't post anything on Twitter, unless it's pictures of cats being cute.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Sure, but few people on the left are trying to excuse it. The beef is that Beckett's suspension is disproportionate and factionally motivated:
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1393083548152864770
https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1393114144027648007
I agree.
Dave H.
Revolutionary relativist
I disagree. That kind of talk should have no place in politics. What if it had come from an equivalently placed right-winger, and was directed at, say, Sadiq Khan? Notwithstanding the fact that it'd be reported differently, I believe many who are saying the response to Beckett's tweet is factional or an overreaction would be calling for just the same kind of response.
Regardless, however, observe how effective it's been in sucking both Labour's opponents and its insiders into going on - again - about Labour instead of the calculated, borderline fascistic actions by the government.
That puts Labour in the position not simply of failing to be an effective opposition, but of actively shielding the government as it openly and publicly manifests the very worst of its tendencies.
Regardless, however, observe how effective it's been in sucking both Labour's opponents and its insiders into going on - again - about Labour instead of the calculated, borderline fascistic actions by the government.
That puts Labour in the position not simply of failing to be an effective opposition, but of actively shielding the government as it openly and publicly manifests the very worst of its tendencies.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Then it would clearly be racist. It's the intent that matters over the liberal critique. It's perfectly obvious that Beckett's intent was to attack Patels' racism.
Oh dear. Why would anyone vote labour? This isn't about left or right just a total lack of competence. The defence of 'it's an over-reaction', what about the right wing of the party is just whataboutery. Anyone with half a brain would know that you don't talk about deportation, in any context, towards a person of colour. It's totally right wing xenophobic language. Totally indefensible.
Dave H.
Revolutionary relativist
When it comes to current public statements by those seeking election, I don’t agree. And either way, immediate suspension pending investigation is the only way to respond, both in terms of how such things should be dealt with, and in terms of the political realities of the situation.
But again, that’s distracting from the much more important political issue of the government’s choice of action. So much so that I’ll duck out there so as not to do so further.
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