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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

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Tony L said:
I’d put money on it not being. This is a very cheap ctrl-c ctrl-v of some remarkably ugly US Trump/Republican policy that has kept the right to vote as far away from poor black areas as possible.
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Is there anything in the proposed bill that says it'll cost?

A national ID card, free for those w/out a passport or driving licence should fix it, no?
 
sean99 said:
Lexiters have been ignoring this one since before the referendum in 2016. It must be a significant ongoing mental effort to ignore it, but I think the realization, deep down, that they have enabled the most right wing, authoritarian government in modern UK history underlies their inability to publicly admit they made a mistake.
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There was the small matter of the 2019 General Election. I doubt you'll find anyone on the left who voted to 'Get Brexit Done'. The damage was done by Labour reneging on its 2017 election pledge. Had the referendum been marginally for remain there would have been constant pressure for a second vote.
 
Seeker_UK said:
Is there anything in the proposed bill that says it'll cost?
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a) If it was free it wouldn’t disenfranchise non-Tory voters.

b) Johnson is exactly the type of extreme right-wing libertarian who would stand against enforced state ID cards (i.e. “showing ID” is something different here, e.g. a driving license, passport, corporate work ID, things hundreds of thousands do not have).

For clues just look at the controversy around voting in black and minority areas in the USA. Johnson really is Britain Trump, he’s seen it and he’s copying it, as he does so much policy and rhetoric. Don’t be fooled by the dumb spoilt posh prick act. He is a nasty piece of work and has proven it beyond all doubt countless times. This is a power grab, nothing more.
 
In my view if citizens have to prove their identity with an ID card to vote, then contributors to think tanks and other vote "influencers" should need to prove their identity before donations can be accepted.
All part of the transparency of the political process. Somehow I don't think Tories will like that though.
 
ks.234 said:
Even if it is free to you and me there will be a cost to the taxpayer.
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Well, the more affluent will tend to have the passports and driving licences so it'll be the less well off which will receive most of these and they generally pay less tax, so it seems fairer.

And a small rise to tax is a small price to pay if IDs are the answer and we're trying to avoid disenfranchisement. :)
 
Seeker_UK said:
Well, the more affluent will tend to have the passports and driving licences so it'll be the less well off which will receive most of these and they generally pay less tax, so it seems fairer.

And a small rise to tax is a small price to pay if IDs are the answer and we're trying to avoid disenfranchisement. :)
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I mean, they might have a point, mightn't they, and it's pure coincidence that it will affect voting in a way extremely beneficial to the tories, and that the johnson has lifted this from trump, who was the kindest, most empathic, libertarian, honest, wise president the US has ever seen. I mean, if this wasn't the case anyone supporting such a measure and arguing for it would have to be a total tory lickspittle, wouldn't they?
 
Seeker_UK said:
The question? You know there's more than one to be answered... :)
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If we can’t be clear about the question, then the answer is going to be a bit rubbish in = rubbish out.

If the question is, does voter fraud exist? then the answer is Yes. It exists in a figure of less than 200 in 2 GE’s and a Referendum. That’s what? 200 in 50 million? Which I think is 0.000004%.

If the question is, does voter fraud exist to an extent that it could reasonably be called a significant problem, then on the evidence available so far, the answer is quite obviously no.

Ask the same questions about the likely consequences on turnouts to GE and local elections if voter ID is introduced? Would the introduction of voter ID have a negative or a positive effect on turnout? Is that effect greater or smaller than 0.000004%?
 
ks.234 said:
If the question is, does voter fraud exist to an extent that it could reasonably be called a significant problem, then on the evidence available so far, the answer is quite obviously no.
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Absolutely, and to rub salt in the wounds one only needs to contrast and compare it to the very real fraud of Tory corruption, sleaze, cronyism etc, which has cost the tax payer literally £bns in the past 12 months alone. They are absolutely taking the piss.
 
Tony L said:
Absolutely, and to rub salt in the wounds one only needs to contrast and compare it to the very real fraud of Tory corruption, sleaze, cronyism etc, which has cost the tax payer literally £bns in the past 12 months alone. They are absolutely taking the piss.
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Yes, and if you take 0.000004% as a baseline, then the figure for actual, documented fraud happening right under our noses would be a gazillion to the power of a ham sandwich.

Perhaps we should be more concerned with real, demonstrable, endemic, in-your-face fraud in government rather than being directed at something infinitesimal somewhere else?
 
vince rocker said:
Andy Burnham has written an article for The Guardian "Keir Starmer can succeed if he embraces English devolution".
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/13/keir-starmer-english-devolution-labour
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Is this not potentially very dangerous? We're seemingly headed towards England (and perhaps Wales) alone, with the most corrupt govt in living memory that already cuts £ to areas that don't vote tory. It might increase the power of politicians like Burnham but would likely further impoverish his constituents. Is the end game loads of little statelets with local tax raising powers?
 
Tony L said:
Even ignoring the blindingly obvious link between a Brexit mindset and right-wing authoritarianism, you do realise that an enforced ID card will disproportionately lose huge numbers of *Labour* votes? It will hit the poorest, ethnic minorities, and the young the hardest (and IMHO very deliberately). That strikes me as something that impacts you, way, way more than me. I honestly don’t care if Labour get any votes next election. I know they won’t be getting mine!
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It’s not clear why you decided to write the bit in bold, it’s not relevant to anything I posted. I’m really not very familiar with Farage in case you chuck his name at me again. I’ve never paid much attention to him.

Anyway, the question of a national ID card has been raised many times before, it is not exclusively a tory policy or tory issue, people of differing political views have no problem with the principle. Whether there is a specific problem with an ID card and voting is a separate issue. When does this requirement for an ID card start? A lot of extraordinary knee-jerking happens here with certain subjects and this is one of them. What is the timescale?

Yes, I know you don’t care if Labour do badly at the next GE. What a pity that will increase the chances of the right wing, authoritarian tories winning another term in govt so it seems you don’t care about that either. That is the realistic consequence.
 
Brian said:
It’s not clear why you decided to write the bit in bold, it’s not relevant to anything I posted. I’m really not very familiar with Farage in case you chuck his name at me again. I’ve never paid much attention to him.

Anyway, the question of a national ID card has been raised many times before, it is not exclusively a tory policy or tory issue, people of differing political views have no problem with the principle. Whether there is a specific problem with an ID card and voting is a separate issue. When does this requirement for an ID card start? A lot of extraordinary knee-jerking happens here with certain subjects and this is one of them. What is the timescale?

Yes, I know you don’t care if Labour do badly at the next GE. What a pity that will increase the chances of the right wing, authoritarian tories winning another term in govt so it seems you don’t care about that either. That is the realistic consequence.
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Nobody’s talking about a National ID card, the points being discussed are around voter ID. On voter ID, what is Sir Kier Starmer’s view?
 
ks.234 said:
If we can’t be clear about the question, then the answer is going to be a bit rubbish in = rubbish out.

If the question is, does voter fraud exist? then the answer is Yes. It exists in a figure of less than 200 in 2 GE’s and a Referendum. That’s what? 200 in 50 million? Which I think is 0.000004%.

If the question is, does voter fraud exist to an extent that it could reasonably be called a significant problem, then on the evidence available so far, the answer is quite obviously no.

Ask the same questions about the likely consequences on turnouts to GE and local elections if voter ID is introduced? Would the introduction of voter ID have a negative or a positive effect on turnout? Is that effect greater or smaller than 0.000004%?
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I've not disagreed with any of that at all.
 
ff1d1l said:
I mean, they might have a point, mightn't they, and it's pure coincidence that it will affect voting in a way extremely beneficial to the tories, and that the johnson has lifted this from trump, who was the kindest, most empathic, libertarian, honest, wise president the US has ever seen. I mean, if this wasn't the case anyone supporting such a measure and arguing for it would have to be a total tory lickspittle, wouldn't they?
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That's one explanation. The other is that they simply don't bother to understand the problem or question it.
 
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