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Is Brexit a Very English Thing?

Maybe Brexit is not about the future of the UK but about the past?

Or trying to project some past mythical over-hyped glory into the future?
Certainly not in my case. I voted to leave for the future of the population. Not the UK, or Britain, or England., but all the people therein.
But if you want a projection of past glory into the future, look at the two European countries who have tried to create a continental empire, one in the last century and the other for hundreds of years. Not learning the mistakes of history dooms you to repeating them.
 
Brexit isn't well received or understood by the Portuguese IME. It has added to the consensus of the UK having a stiff upper lip, being superior to the EU etc. -- This is merely my experience, born in hull, lived in PT for 7 years now.
 
Certainly not in my case. I voted to leave for the future of the population. Not the UK, or Britain, or England., but all the people therein.
Generous and big hearted of you.
How exactly did you know I wanted an ongoing disaster for the foreseeable future?
Next time you want to adversely alter my future without my permission, just fvck off instead, will you?
 
Certainly not in my case. I voted to leave for the future of the population. Not the UK, or Britain, or England., but all the people therein.
But if you want a projection of past glory into the future, look at the two European countries who have tried to create a continental empire, one in the last century and the other for hundreds of years. Not learning the mistakes of history dooms you to repeating them.
Splendid Isolation* it is then. Oh, and thanks for the literally countless benefits that are stacking up as I tap this out...

(* worked then, didn't it?...)
 
Splendid Isolation* it is then. Oh, and thanks for the literally countless benefits that are stacking up as I tap this out...

(* worked then, didn't it?...)

At the rate these brexit benefits are stacking up, before too long the country will be desperate to join the EEA/EFTA!
 
Certainly not in my case. I voted to leave for the future of the population. Not the UK, or Britain, or England., but all the people therein.
But if you want a projection of past glory into the future, look at the two European countries who have tried to create a continental empire, one in the last century and the other for hundreds of years. Not learning the mistakes of history dooms you to repeating them.

You voted on behalf of the rest of the population, and to give them a better future. Really? Or did you vote to give yourself that future and put everyone else at risk from your assumptions. Thanks for all your hard work so far. Not.
 
Part of this is about putting distance between yourself and the people who didn't vote like you in the referendum. You can do that by labelling them ('gammon', 'remoaners', 'brexsh*tters', 'hard remainers' or the generic pfm favourite, 'cvnts') or you can do that by identifying a characteristic that makes them different (and in some cases inferior) to you (older, poorer, less well educated, English, right-wingers, left-wingers, not 'proper' Welsh, not 'proper' Scots, metropolitan elites, 'white van man', Southerners, Northerners, etc etc). It means we don't have to consider that there are people out there just like us except for one thing; a different view on this one issue that remains divisive even now we've actually left.

In the end, all it does is (a) condemns us to an endless cycle of post-mortem and finger pointing that will get in the way of getting on and (b) avoids the need to really worry about the underlying reasons.

I agree with most of that except "(b) avoids the need to really worry about the underlying reasons."

Can't help feeling that Brexit itself was a massive diversion from problems of our own creation and most of it's protagonists will be totally unconcerned by (a). They relish it.

You can see some of that in the fixations with falsly claimed costs of belonging while the costs of leaving have not even featured, other than in some mindless "whatever the cost it'll be worth it" nonsense. A measure that few people would ever happily apply to a personal transation, they are perfectly willing to visit unquestioningly on the population as a whole.
 
Reading the posts so far it seems that national identity to most here on pfm is a many splendored thing. However, it also seems that those in the wider UK who identified specifically as English above being British, are those who were also more likely to be pro Brexit.

As such it seems that Brexit is a very English thing.

To identify as English over being British is to be exclusive, whereas to identify as being British, in the context of the UK at least, is more inclusive.

The question then is, is the exclusive identity of an English Brexit at odds with the inclusive identity of a United Kingdom?

A very odd conclusion to draw from such an extremely narrow sample, and one which completely ignores the varying-sized minorities who voted to leave in the 3 nations, and the large one that voted to remain in England.

FWIW I consider myself British first, and English second (I'm anyway the usual mish-mash, this one comprising English, Irish and, distantly, French), and I voted to leave.

Leave in my case had nothing to do with nation or antipathy towards Europe and European people. I see the EU as being antithetical to all three.

My Passport is from the UK, though it lapsed five years ago. My birth place is in England. My mother was Norwegian, though naturalised in the UK before she died. My father was born to a Welsh lady - though she was as Herefordian English as you could imagine in reality, and my [UK] grandfather was a Herefordian [born, worked and died in the county] though with many Welsh ancestors. So I am more Norwegian than Welsh, and more Welsh than English, at least concerning ancestors.

What am I? British is the simple answer. Born here, brought up here, and worked all my life here. If offered the UK variant I am happy to go with that. If only offered the English variant I am still content. But the truth is that I am a white North-western European, and for what it is worth I am like many Norwegians in having a hefty dose of scepticism about the direction of travel seen over the last four decades of UK membership of the EEC/EU.

One admirable thing about Norwegian nationalism is that it is mainstream, and not a political statement or exclusive to any specific political angle, at least since 1905 when Norway separated from the Swedish nation. They fly flags at almost any excuse. The Norwegian National Day - seventeenth of May - is celebrated by school children holding parades all over the country rather than what most would do and hold military parades. You might think the Norwegian Army would struggle to hold simultaneous parades in many places at once!

Mainstream nationalism in the UK is rather muted. Perhaps this is because most people are so sure of the nation that outward showing of it is spare. I don't know, but politically it seems associated with the right to the embarrassment of non-right wing people.

I don't post about Brexit as a rule, because my view would possibly be incendiary for many here, and I deplored both the campaigns for Brexit and Remain as being typically devoid of truth or actual reasoned debate, but there is a rational argument for a relationship such as Norway has developed with the EU without membership. As with any trading relationship with the EU, Norway has its grumbles about rules and restrictions placed on it by the EU to facilitate trade, but that is always the case in any given trading relationship. In the UK we shall face many challenges over time in seeking to build a stable trading relationship with the EU, as we shall in developing trade with the USA and and other trading nations and trading blocks. Each will bring some restrictions on the Law and sovereignty to facilitate economic prosperity.

My views on the EU were formed in the early nineteen-eighties and concerned, initially, the Common Agricultural Policy, and the way that was run to the very considerable disadvantage of the UK agricultural industry as it then existed. I have seen nothing to indicate my early apprehensions nearly four decades ago were unfounded across many aspects of trade far beyond agriculture, and so I look at Norway, and I think that somehow - and in spite of a very real "project fear campaign" by the EU joiners when Norway last voted on EU membership - they have steered a very sensible course in relation to the EU without becoming a member state.

The UK has a lot of catching up to do now as no doubt that damage - serious damage - has been done in respect of how other EU electorates now view us. The result of Brexit will do quite serious economic damage in the short term, but how successful the UK [or if the Union breaks up the constituent nations] is economically, depends on so many factors, including the virus, measures to combat global climate change, and also how industrious and inventive we show ourselves over the coming years.

One argument for EU membership was that it allows the UK to punch above its weight. I have always deplored that idea. Why would any nation want to punch above its weight? Only to satisfy some pseudo-nationalist notion that it deserves to because of innate superiority would be my thought on that. Clearly the UK and its colonies and dominions were the sole allies for a period in the Second World War fighting Nazism. That is the last time the UK [with her allies across the globe] could feel rightfully proud of herself in what was a true leadership role. Since then we have muddled along making pragmatic policy decisions that often were very far from anything we should be proud of. The toppling of Iran's Mossadec regime in a coup, and the Suez affair are two major examples in the nineteen-fifties, and each decade brought similar - still wanting to punch above our weight - exemplary of imperial echoes.

That has to stop. No interference with other sovereign nations for national self-interest. We may bring economic sanctions to bear such as restricting the cotton trade with China over forced labour and so on, but certainly that costs us as much as China. Not warfare over what are matters of other nations' own affairs.

The line may well be drawn in terms of aggressive warfare on an ally, but conventional war is now all but impossible in the nuclear age. The real war is on terrorism and as we are all too acutely aware, terrorism can be home grown.

If the UK needs to do anything urgently, then we need to clean house with regard to our own system of elections, and constitution. The Lords needs to go, and first past the post MP elections. We probably do need a second chamber to replace the Lords, as a stay on the power of any political party in government, and this should be constituted with staggered annual of biennial elections of a portion of the second house and also a time limit of service for members ...

With PR for MPs we would get away from the gridlock of a two party system that does nothing for continuity and allows for both the left and right to dominate in turns, even on a significantly minority popular vote. If a multi-party system emerged the new elected second house would then gradual centre over time on a stabilising counter to any potential threat to proper elections being held.

Probably more than a penny's worth but not more than tuppence! Best wishes from George

A sensible and well considered post.

Can you list the future benefits for the population?

I think there's another thread floating about so where that's devoted to that question.
 
Brexit isn't well received or understood by the Portuguese IME. It has added to the consensus of the UK having a stiff upper lip, being superior to the EU etc. -- This is merely my experience, born in hull, lived in PT for 7 years now.

The Portuguese don't understand the meaning of the expression "stiff upper lip"... They usually confuse it with superiority, it means enduring and unemotional.

Come to think of it, perhaps there's something of a stiff upper lip-ness about Brexit. Shooting yourself in the foot and taking it with grace?
 
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Avoiding the swear filter by using different characters sets may fool the forum software but not human beings.

Please stop, this is a family friendly site.
 
I agree with most of that except "(b) avoids the need to really worry about the underlying reasons."

Can't help feeling that Brexit itself was a massive diversion from problems of our own creation and most of it's protagonists will be totally unconcerned by (a). They relish it.

As I stated upthread, we all know it's always easier (and often advantageous) to blame someone else for our problems than address them ourselves. This is a recurrent theme thorough the ages "bloody foreigners taking our jobs" since the 50s, "EU residents blocking up our hospitals", Brussels regulations stifling the UK's growth.

Brexit has provided a brilliant excuse for years to come from someone blaming their Brexit neighbour because they lost their job ("yeah, the company went tits up because the Government said it's those f**kers in the EU making our life difficult with exporting; paperwork and all that malarkey.") to the SNP blaming the 'English Brexit' for a failure in their economy.

Brexit hasn't solved all (or any, YMMV) of the problems they promised it would and something will come along to provide the next simple solutions to them and we know who some of the cheerleaders will be; the same Brexit cheerleaders. If you want to neuter them, the national discussion has to shift focus entirely away from who was responsible (we know) for Brexit happening onto what was responsible for Brexit happening. If we don't do that and stop kicking lumps out of each other for where we put a tick in the box in 2016, we're going to be stuck in an endless cycle of 'horribleness' and this country is going nowhere except to the dogs.
 
the costs of leaving have not even featured, other than in some mindless "whatever the cost it'll be worth it" nonsense.
But this is the point. Brexit is largely ideologically driven. On that basis it's something that is justified by some as essential regardless of the cost. They may justify it by highlighting the costs and shortcomings of the EU, be they real or imagined, but that's just noise. If that means we go back to the 1950s, making do, darning socks and making tasty soups from root vegetables, then in the ideologue's mind it's justified.
 
A very odd conclusion to draw from such an extremely narrow sample, and one which completely ignores the varying-sized minorities who voted to leave in the 3 nations, and the large one that voted to remain in England.

FWIW I consider myself British first, and English second (I'm anyway the usual mish-mash, this one comprising English, Irish and, distantly, French), and I voted to leave.

Leave in my case had nothing to do with nation or antipathy towards Europe and European people. I see the EU as being antithetical to all three.
The only conclusion I’ve made on the small sample of pfm was that those who responded identified as British rather than English, as do you.

For the wider conclusion that those that identify as English, rather than British, are more likely to be pro Brexit, I have used the evidence of polls cited on R4 and evidence linked to in this thread, in fact, it was poll evidence, not pfm, that sparked this thread
I think there's another thread floating about so where that's devoted to that question.
Yes there is, and it’s very very long. However, despite it’s huge volume, positive effects of Brexit seem rather thin.
 
But this is the point. Brexit is largely ideologically driven. On that basis it's something that is justified by some as essential regardless of the cost. They may justify it by highlighting the costs and shortcomings of the EU, be they real or imagined, but that's just noise. If that means we go back to the 1950s, making do, darning socks and making tasty soups from root vegetables, then in the ideologue's mind it's justified.

This. It's all about different values and priorities. I don't think that the economic hit from decoupling from the EU is worth the cost for "sovereignty" or whatever other benefits would come. Others do.
 
Avoiding the swear filter by using different characters sets may fool the forum software but not human beings.

Please stop, this is a family friendly site.


I doubt any children are reading this, we are all grown ups and swearing is a good way to emphasise a point, unless you want us to start writing in capital letters.
 
As I stated upthread, we all know it's always easier (and often advantageous) to blame someone else for our problems than address them ourselves. This is a recurrent theme thorough the ages "bloody foreigners taking our jobs" since the 50s, "EU residents blocking up our hospitals", Brussels regulations stifling the UK's growth.

Brexit has provided a brilliant excuse for years to come from someone blaming their Brexit neighbour because they lost their job ("yeah, the company went tits up because the Government said it's those f**kers in the EU making our life difficult with exporting; paperwork and all that malarkey.") to the SNP blaming the 'English Brexit' for a failure in their economy.

Brexit hasn't solved all (or any, YMMV) of the problems they promised it would and something will come along to provide the next simple solutions to them and we know who some of the cheerleaders will be; the same Brexit cheerleaders. If you want to neuter them, the national discussion has to shift focus entirely away from who was responsible (we know) for Brexit happening onto what was responsible for Brexit happening. If we don't do that and stop kicking lumps out of each other for where we put a tick in the box in 2016, we're going to be stuck in an endless cycle of 'horribleness' and this country is going nowhere except to the dogs.
Its gone.
 


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