I was lied to...

[Minio]

KOB is rough.

It's got to be one of the most natural recordings ever.
I've yet to spot a punch in, overdub, edit, creative eq or a processor of any sort.
It's just 5 musicians playing. And not being panned from left to right for psychedelic effect.

I'll give you that it's not like a live event. That's probably because it's a studio album all the same.

 

[James]

Yes clean and loud. In a listening room, dream on.

It's a challenge and beyond most of our kit. On the other hand, most of us play music too quietly, for good reasons, one being domestic harmony, the other being the neighbours.

I have the luxury of a detached home with a dedicated music room. My average listening level averages around 80dB with peaks up to 100dB. That is about as loud as 30W into a pair Yamaha NS-1000M will go comfortably. No, that will never recreate AC/DC concert levels - nor do I want to at home.

 

[chartz]

It's got to be one of the most natural recordings ever.
I've yet to spot a punch in, overdub, edit, creative eq or a processor of any sort.
It's just 5 musicians playing. And not being panned from left to right for psychedelic effect.

I'll give you that it's not like a live event. That's probably because it's a studio album all the same.

Correct.
I find the piano is so-so though.

 

[Octavian]

Source first is not altogether a lie.

Yes it is. That something else than loudspeakers may also count is another matter. The core proposition in 'source first' however is that source is the most important part of the system because it is the "first". This is complete BS, of course.

 

[onlyconnect]

Yes it is. That something else than loudspeakers may also count is another matter. The core proposition in 'source first' however is that source is the most important part of the system because it is the "first". This is complete BS, of course.

Why? Bad source = bad system.

Tim

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I got a pretty good sense of what the pro audio side could offer, so then decided the next terrain would be pro cinema, which was actually very close to the pro audio side. The challenge is that it is practically impossible to demo pro cinema gear. I took a punt and bought 3 JBL 3677’s and figured it would a least give me a sense of what they can do. Wow! Absolutely amazing with movies but that 15 inch woofer and one inch compression driver gave me a sense of that direction with music (Arkless). It was doing things no other speaker had done. It wasn’t very refined, the highs were a bit rolled off, but... so I got three more!

I began to do my research to move further in that direction. It does make sense that pro cinema speakers would sound good with movies and music, since soundtrack and dialogue are crucial to the movie experience. I couldn’t quite find the one speaker that I felt would give me everything, so went about creating it from JBL’s pro cinema line. At the end, it is a three way active pair of speakers, using JBL’s 1.5 inch compression driver in a horn, two 15 inch woofers in the top cabinet, and an 18 inch woofer in the bottom cabinet. In putting it all together, this got the closest to a live sound I have ever heard. It was still missing a bit of refinement, so added 4 inch beryllium diaphragms to the compression drivers. They have an efficiency of around 103db/w that easily goes down to 24hz. It has scale, dynamics, and that pressure you get in your chest from live music, four 15 in woofers will do that. Sound stage and imaging, texture and tone are realistic. The imaging doesn’t feel forced or artificial, especially in a treated room. Instruments sound real whether you are in front of it, or you are upstairs, sounding like a band is playing.

Congratulations! Genuinely delighted you're getting where you want to go. All you need now, to complete the experience, is to pour a few litres of beer and fizzy pop into the carpet, and grind some stale popcorn in there for good measure. Leave for 3 days, then vacuum off any superficial residue and leave the rest to mature.

 

[RXH2]

I haven't owned a lot of kit compared to some fishes, since getting my first separates system in the late 70s I've only owned six amps, and now have active speakers. Each change as been to a higher level, price wise and performance wise. I just want to be able to close my eyes and on simpler music feel that the performers are in my lounge. The only live music I've heard is after all actually listening to the musician's or venue's system, even in a very small venue. I don't expect to recreate rock concerts and Bruce and the E street band wouldn't fit in my lounge anyway.....
On topic, I've tried to keep things balanced so that the better record player gets a better amp and speakers so the extra info retrieved isn't lost along the way.

 

[Mike Reed]

Ah yes And also the unfortunately unrepeatable thrill of those first time things which now seem "normal".... your first gig, first festival, first time you drove a car/rode a motorbike etc

I've often wondered what one of my former systems, which I and others eulogised over, sounds like today in comparison with the current stuff. Probably pretty naff, I'd've thought. Assuming 401/SME 3012/Shure V15 into Revox amp, tuner and R2R into home-made 15" Goodmans with Trebax and Midax horns can sound naff. I was a first year (mature) student at the time (1970).

and the first time you heard a mains cable!

I heard one yesterday.

Luckily I'm deaf to such frivolous connectivity in the main.

 

[Minio]

Yes it is!

No it isn't!

Only one way to find out.

 

[AndrewG]

Why? Bad source = bad system.

Tim

I agree wholeheartedly. If the signal from the source is ‘poor’ then, whatever is done to it by the rest of the system, it will remain poor. You can’t get a decent cup of coffee by putting instant into a posh espresso machine - I’m sure others can come up with better analogies! In my view you need a balanced system, from source to speakers, including the right room.

 

[Purité Audio]

But a ‘state of the art’ digital source costs peanuts.
Keith

 

[Minio]

Source first seems to be more of a maxim from the age of analogue.
Funnily enough I just sold my standby lower priced turntable. It didn't suit the rest of the system. Didn't cut the mustard.
You need quality at the source.

1970s wisdom works for me.

 

[Octavian]

I agree wholeheartedly. If the signal from the source is ‘poor’ then, whatever is done to it by the rest of the system, it will remain poor..

But this is not everything that source first ideology says. Funnily enough, it seems that most defenders of said philosophy do not actually understand what is being claimed!

 

[Octavian]

1970s wisdom works for me.

I feel happy for you. But frankly, I find the question of truth of 1970s wisdom more interesting.

 

[onlyconnect]

But a ‘state of the art’ digital source costs peanuts.
Keith

That was not the case back then.

Tim

 

[onlyconnect]

But this is not everything that source first ideology says. Funnily enough, it seems that most defenders of said philosophy do not actually understand what is being claimed!

Maybe we are discussing different things, in which case it is not surprising that there are differences of opinion. I am simply reflecting on the logic, and my recollection of how this was put in the early 80s. I am sure it was put in different ways by different people and that some of those ways were pretty crazy.

Tim

 

[Purité Audio]

That was not the case back then.

Tim

That was then, this is now.
Keith

 

[Minio]

If we look at the postulation of the OP it was not a lie as stated.

At least not in 1970 when there were no digital sources.

 

[Mike Reed]

But a ‘state of the art’ digital source costs peanuts.

I'm allergic to those.

If, and this is not tied down to any chronological period since the seventies, it's the true source which is to be considered, it's the electricity powering your kit. Of course, on a somewhat pedantic but often pursued route, dedicated mains (radials) are about the only 100% means to full effectiveness, barring separate phases and batteries.

Maybe better to discuss the destination (before the listener), which throws up so many variations of transducer designs to be just as thorny a subject as identifying the best source.. Only one thing remains constant for excellence, i.m.o., and that is synergy (incorporating everything including the room).

 

[deserter]

With digital sources, maybe

If you play a crap turntable In to fantastic speakers and amp, it will sound crap .

If you play a good turntable in to a decent mid price amp and speakers it will sound good