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I have seen the Light. Is it too late to change my view on Brexit?

Yes but. What sort of Remain?
We shall just have to wait and see. I think that the only certainty is uncertainty. No political party has said that they will consider a coalition. I wonder if that will change if there’s a chance of power.....
 
We shall just have to wait and see. I think that the only certainty is uncertainty. No political party has said that they will consider a coalition. I wonder if that will change if there’s a chance of power.....

If various parties allow the country to be completely shafted by a Tory Brexit and 5 years of Tory "occupation" rather than find some shared ground and compromise then it will be the worst indictment of UK politics in history... well since the idea for a leave referendum anyway!
 
@arkless. I can just picture our fearless leader on the stump giving a speech saying something like “I didn’t fight in two world wars to let some German dictate what we can and cannot do in our own country. Two World wars, one World Cup, two World wars one World Cup....”

BJ is about to face scrutiny the like of which he has never experienced before. I suspect that even the right wing press might stab him in the back if they sense that they can flog a few more papers out of it. Plus I still think that the PM is going to score an own goal at some point in the hustings. JCs hidden talent is that he is now an experienced campaigner at this level. There’s a long way to go and much to be discussed.
 
Brexit has been extremely illuminating for me - I have seen the utter ****ishness of politicians of all flavours; worse though, the utter ****ishness of most of the population. I'm uncertain about a lot of things Brexit but certain that I don't want to be involved with 70+% of our nation.
 
I will never change my mind - the EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, protectionist, restrictive, wasteful, moribund and close to bankrupt attempt to create a giant European superstate which has bankrupted Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece, with France and Germany soon to follow. It is close to collapse. It has its roots in Nazi Germany, and is otherwise know as The Fourth Reich. How any sane, intelligent person could think it was in any kind of way a good or sensible idea baffles me.

You started off on the money, but then spoiled it with the Nazi Germany thing. Most people would perfectly reasonably argue that the origins of the EU lie in the desire to prevent a repeat of the experience of German expansionism by tying the German raw materials of munitions production to those of the French - the European Coal & Steel Community, so rather the opposite to a promotion of some kind of neo-Nazism.

Others argue that the origins of the EU lie in the 1930s and the theories of neoliberalism as an alternative to the failed concepts of true liberalism, as expounded by intellectuals such as Freidrich Hayek and Walter Lipmann, and the post-war reconstitution of those theories in the Mont Pelerin movement. It might be reasonable to speculate that the EU has really developed into the bastard child of neoliberalism (which decries state intervention), German ordoliberalism (which does what it says on the box), and pro-state French socialism, with the legal, governmental and constitutional systems being derived variously from both France & Germany. Germany, with its massive industrial exporting sector, has undoubtedly benefitted from, and thoroughly gamed, its advantageous position vis-a-vis the other members in regard of the Euro membership, and few would argue with the premise that Germany has been the de-facto leader of the EU for some while now, though that is being challenged in timely intervention by Jupiter himself. Whilst The Fourth Reich thing resonates quite well with some British (and perhaps with more reason, Greek) sensibilities, the militarism which it somehow signifies is conspicuously absent from any current form of reality.
 
He started off on the wrong track and then went nuts.

"..the EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, protectionist, restrictive, wasteful, moribund and close to bankrupt attempt to create a giant European superstate which has bankrupted Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece..."

Apart from the fact that as far as I'm aware Ireland and Spain aren't bankrupt, and France and Germany probably aren't about to be, what's wrong with that sentence?
 
"..the EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, protectionist, restrictive, wasteful, moribund and close to bankrupt attempt to create a giant European superstate which has bankrupted Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece..."

Apart from the fact that as far as I'm aware Ireland and Spain aren't bankrupt, and France and Germany probably aren't about to be, what's wrong with that sentence?
It missed out "the UK is corrupt, undemocratic, protectionist, restrictive, wasteful, moribund and close to bankrupt" to be?
 
You started off on the money, but then spoiled it with the Nazi Germany thing. Most people would perfectly reasonably argue that the origins of the EU lie in the desire to prevent a repeat of the experience of German expansionism by tying the German raw materials of munitions production to those of the French - the European Coal & Steel Community, so rather the opposite to a promotion of some kind of neo-Nazism.

Others argue that the origins of the EU lie in the 1930s and the theories of neoliberalism as an alternative to the failed concepts of true liberalism, as expounded by intellectuals such as Freidrich Hayek and Walter Lipmann, and the post-war reconstitution of those theories in the Mont Pelerin movement. It might be reasonable to speculate that the EU has really developed into the bastard child of neoliberalism (which decries state intervention), German ordoliberalism (which does what it says on the box), and pro-state French socialism, with the legal, governmental and constitutional systems being derived variously from both France & Germany. Germany, with its massive industrial exporting sector, has undoubtedly benefitted from, and thoroughly gamed, its advantageous position vis-a-vis the other members in regard of the Euro membership, and few would argue with the premise that Germany has been the de-facto leader of the EU for some while now, though that is being challenged in timely intervention by Jupiter himself. Whilst The Fourth Reich thing resonates quite well with some British (and perhaps with more reason, Greek) sensibilities, the militarism which it somehow signifies is conspicuously absent from any current form of reality.
He cut to the sauerkraut whereas you carefully skirt round it with frequent nudge nudge wink wink knoworramean?
 
He cut to the sauerkraut whereas you carefully skirt round it with frequent nudge nudge wink wink knoworramean?

Do I really?

Perhaps you could give me some examples of this frequent nudge nudge wink wink knoworramean?

Have to say that the standard of your frequent interjections is scrabbling up previously unscaled peaks of qualitative intellectual discourse, even by pfm's heady standards.
 
I will never change my mind - the EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, protectionist, restrictive, wasteful, moribund and close to bankrupt attempt to create a giant European superstate which has bankrupted Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece, with France and Germany soon to follow. It is close to collapse. It has its roots in Nazi Germany, and is otherwise know as The Fourth Reich. How any sane, intelligent person could think it was in any kind of way a good or sensible idea baffles me.

I'll have pineapple with that please.
 
It missed out "the UK is corrupt, undemocratic, protectionist, restrictive, wasteful, moribund and close to bankrupt" to be?

Bloody is too. Thank God we have the ballot box, and some semblance of a democracy.
 
If we had democracy PMs wouldn't be able to get into power without the public having a vote. Our electoral system is a joke as is our parliament!

Fair enough, we have a party and not a presidential system, but if that's how you feel, we have the ballot box, the right to protest, and (still, just about) the right to free speech. You can vote and you can campaign for change.

You can't get anywhere near the institutions of the bent, corrupt, wasteful etc EU, because they don't just 'not do' democracy, they have been actively designed, from the drawing board, to repel it. And free speech is taking a bigger pounding there than here. I understand that social media sites that disseminate what the ECJ considers, apparently arbitrarily, to be untruthfully critical of the EU can already be fined enormous sums and ordered to be taken down. That is the top of a very slippery slope.
 
The UKIP-Anti Muslim flags are flying outside Westminster I see, along with the US flag. WTF’s that about?
 


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