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I have seen the Light. Is it too late to change my view on Brexit?

Mike Reed said:
Well, yes, but there is a limit to one's enhancement of vocabulary. Somewhat arcane and foreign political terminology exceeds my capacity to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest. :)
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Awareness......the awareness not to look a fool by calling someone out for a 'made up word'.
 
eternumviti said:
I'm sorry if you find my writing style pompous. I guess we all have our cross to bear, and I'll have to live with it.
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Thanks EV.
It's not that it's pompous. That's not a big deal. What it is is poor communication, you make some good points about the limitations of the EU but when you cloud the points you make in verbose language it comes across as obfuscation. It means that your points are not read. "Oh, he's rambling along on his BS bingo again, here we go, oligarchy, hegemony, neoliberal, undemocratic, a bit of Greek, blah blah..." and you switch off.

For someone who is so angrily pro-EU, you don't seem very inquisitive about it.
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I'm not angry, other than being justifiably angry that we have apparently voted to make ourselves poorer, limit travel, work, trade and a whole bunch of other things that are going to make life worse for the great majority of the UK. I'm inquisitive about the EU and I'm very sure that it's not a perfect organisation. However I do consider it to be better than the world we face outside it and want to reform it as necessary from within. However hard this is.

Someone else has already posted a link to a definition of ordoliberalism.
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Yes, we all have access to Wikipedia and I looked it up too. The point I'll return to again is that this is poor communication. Nobody knew that word here, unless they have studied PPE, so why use it? I discuss food here, as you know. I could wheel out biochemical jargon, but nobody would understand it. The fact that you can look it up on wiki is neither here nor there, communication is about using language that the audience can understand. I could type French here, you and I and a few others could understand it but it would hardly help the task at hand.

Macron modestly refers to himself - or the post of President - as Jupiter.
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Does he? Again, this is hardly common knowledge.

Macron is gaming Merkel's waning power, and Germany's industrial travails, in a bid to replace Germany with France as the EU’s pre-eminent power.
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Says you. I don't see any evidence for this. If you want to say so, and it's a point wirth debating, then great, bring your evidence. Just please, please don't bash on about ordoliberalism "which does what it says on the tin" when it doesn't say anything comprehesible on the tin because nobody knows the word, or Jupiter, without qualification, because what on earth has a planet or a Greek god got to do with it?
 
myles said:
Awareness......the awareness not to look a fool by calling someone out for a 'made up word'.
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It's a portmanteau word. It is therefore by definition made up. Here's Wiki: "The term "ordoliberalism" (German: Ordoliberalismus) was coined in 1950 by Hero Moeller, and refers to the academic journal ORDO."
 
stevec67 said:
It's a portmanteau word. It is therefore by definition made up. Here's Wiki: "The term "ordoliberalism" (German: Ordoliberalismus) was coined in 1950 by Hero Moeller, and refers to the academic journal ORDO."
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Don't feel bad - this is how a lot of the common terminology originated.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Possibly the greatest contribution of the EU to the UK is in saving us from the worst exigencies of our own "democracy"!! Our own "democracy", without the controls and boundaries of EU law, is free to bend to the will of whatever self interests can pay the best lobbyists or pay the biggest bribes! Often of course to the benefit of some already rich and powerful group or individual that will then repay this "favour" in huge donations to political parties or giving highly paid sinecure jobs to ex ministers etc.
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"Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power." – AA Gill
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Possibly the greatest contribution of the EU to the UK is in saving us from the worst exigencies of our own "democracy"!! Our own "democracy", without the controls and boundaries of EU law, is free to bend to the will of whatever self interests can pay the best lobbyists or pay the biggest bribes! Often of course to the benefit of some already rich and powerful group or individual that will then repay this "favour" in huge donations to political parties or giving highly paid sinecure jobs to ex ministers etc.
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This is crackpot crazy! Explain to me by what mechanisms the EU limits lobbyists and bribery in the UK? The European Commission has about 30,000 lobbyists crawling all over it, seeking influence on everything from industrial standards to the length of time that immigrants can live in a country before they can claim benefits. Lobbying is massive business in Brussels, and whilst Arkless Electronics can't afford to pay the fees that they charge, Philips, Siemens, Seagate and so on can, setting standards that Arkless can't afford to implement, thereby encoding their dominance of the electronics industries. The European Commission can't be touched by normal democratic means.

As for bribery and corruption, consider the current prospective Commission itself. The Presidential candidate herself has corruption questions lurking in the cupboard, as does the current incumbent, the often tired and emotional Juncker. Of the candidates for her Commission, no less than 7 have corruption allegations hanging over them, some of them active investigations by the EU's own anti-corruption body, and one, Josep Borrell, has actually got a conviction for insider trading . Three of them (Borrell not amongst them) have even been rejected by the EP, which is at least a sort of step in the right direction.

The European Commission is effectively completely insulated from you and I in democratic terms.

Beyond the Commission, the new head of the European Central Bank, a position of key importance, is a convicted criminal. Think that one through, if you will.
 
stevec67 said:
Thanks EV.
It's not that it's pompous. That's not a big deal. What it is is poor communication, you make some good points about the limitations of the EU but when you cloud the points you make in verbose language it comes across as obfuscation. It means that your points are not read. "Oh, he's rambling along on his BS bingo again, here we go, oligarchy, hegemony, neoliberal, undemocratic, a bit of Greek, blah blah..." and you switch off.

I'm not angry, other than being justifiably angry that we have apparently voted to make ourselves poorer, limit travel, work, trade and a whole bunch of other things that are going to make life worse for the great majority of the UK. I'm inquisitive about the EU and I'm very sure that it's not a perfect organisation. However I do consider it to be better than the world we face outside it and want to reform it as necessary from within. However hard this is.


Yes, we all have access to Wikipedia and I looked it up too. The point I'll return to again is that this is poor communication. Nobody knew that word here, unless they have studied PPE, so why use it? I discuss food here, as you know. I could wheel out biochemical jargon, but nobody would understand it. The fact that you can look it up on wiki is neither here nor there, communication is about using language that the audience can understand. I could type French here, you and I and a few others could understand it but it would hardly help the task at hand.

Does he? Again, this is hardly common knowledge.

Says you. I don't see any evidence for this. If you want to say so, and it's a point wirth debating, then great, bring your evidence. Just please, please don't bash on about ordoliberalism "which does what it says on the tin" when it doesn't say anything comprehesible on the tin because nobody knows the word, or Jupiter, without qualification, because what on earth has a planet or a Greek god got to do with it?
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EV could use an editor because the internal one has been having a permanent long lunch.
 
eternumviti said:
This is crackpot crazy! Explain to me by what mechanisms the EU limits lobbyists and bribery in the UK? The European Commission has about 30,000 lobbyists crawling all over it, seeking influence on everything from industrial standards to the length of time that immigrants can live in a country before they can claim benefits. Lobbying is massive business in Brussels, and whilst Arkless Electronics can't afford to pay the fees that they charge, Philips, Siemens, Seagate and so on can, setting standards that Arkless can't afford to implement, thereby encoding their dominance of the electronics industries. The European Commission can't be touched by normal democratic means.

As for bribery and corruption, consider the current prospective Commission itself. The Presidential candidate herself has corruption questions lurking in the cupboard, as does the current incumbent, the often tired and emotional Juncker. Of the candidates for her Commission, no less than 7 have corruption allegations hanging over them, some of them active investigations by the EU's own anti-corruption body, and one, Josep Borrell, has actually got a conviction for insider trading . Three of them (Borrell not amongst them) have even been rejected by the EP, which is at least a sort of step in the right direction.

The European Commission is effectively completely insulated from you and I in democratic terms.

Beyond the Commission, the new head of the European Central Bank, a position of key importance, is a convicted criminal. Think that one through, if you will.
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Bollox. I would welcome being ruled entirely by Brussels with the UK gov having no say in it!
PREVENTING out gov getting away with bribery corruption and "the old boys club" is, as I said, the single most important reason for remaining, with having an EU supreme court that can over-rule any silliness from UK courts as the next most important.
 
What a load of w***ery Arkless. If this country is so bad and every country in the EU so wonderful why not f*** off and live in Brussels. What a load of boll***s
 
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