I have now heard the Kii Three!

[S-Man]

From the comments of those hearing the Kii 3 at HiFi shows and elsewhere, to what degree is familiarity with room effects on bass and other parts of the frequency range, having on listeners hearing such “clean delivery” for possibly the first time from a HiFi system?

For example, many audiophiles seemingly prefer, or are more comfortable with a bit of distortion and colouration.

Runs for cover.........

I have had Kii3s at home and was able to spend a day comparing them to my own system.
I had two quite different experiences. In the morning I thought the Kii3s were mediocre, the bass was not deep and not tight, the mids and highs sounded somewhat processed.
However, after lunch and after a few hours warm-up the Kiis sounded very good. Of course it's possible that the "improved" sound was due to a nice lunch with a very fine pint of Landlord, or just getting used to the sound. But I don't think so. If you think about all the stuff inside the Kii box there will be significant heating effect from the amps to the voice coils... over time. I doubt that the DSP is clever enough to correct for the change in drive unit parameters due to temperature. More likely that the designer tweaked it for the usual operating temperature.

My own system produces noticeably cleaner and better bass than the Kii3. I can actually make my system produce bass like the Kiis by raising the LF rolloff point. The Kii3s were used in the exactly the same position as my own speakers.
IMO the cardioid thing is a red herring, they didn't sound markedly different in the way they drove the room compared to my own (even power response) speakers.
I believe that the ear/brain compensates, in fact expects, to hear the room. The 35Hz main mode of my room is easily audible, but not that intrusive to musical enjoyment.

The Kii/BXT room at Munich sounded "right" in the bass. I have since found one of the tracks and played it at home and the characteristics of "correct" bass are there in the same way. This was certainly not the case in the vast majority of MOC rooms where large speakers were playing.

 

[FL390]

What is the difference between the Kii 3 Pro and those sold through HiFi dealers, other than the cabinet finish (rugged high density grey spatter finish) and the cheaper price?

 

[Purité Audio]

What is the difference between the Kii 3 Pro and those sold through HiFi dealers, other than the cabinet finish (rugged high density grey spatter finish) and the cheaper price?

Nothing! just the paint finish, I would always advise hearing theses constant directivity, SBIR
Designed in your own room set-up if possible next to your current system.
One of their major design elements is to reduce the influence of the room, so you simply hear more of the recording.
Keith

 

[FL390]

.....I would always advise hearing theses constant directivity, SBIR
Designed in your own room set-up if possible next to your current system.....

In English please Keith?

 

[Purité Audio]

According to Floyd Toole/Sean Olive , ‘good’ loudspeakers should have a flat on-axis and an off-axis response which mirrors the on-axis, ‘constant directivity’
The theory being that it is a different off-axis response which adds colouration.
Speaker boundary interference just means the cancellations and reinforcements the loudspeaker and walls create.
Dutch&Dutch for instance recommend placing speakers within 50cm of the rear wall to avoid and cancellations, in most traditional loudspeakers this proximity would create a very lumpy bass response, but the bass response in both the Kiis and 8Cs can be adjusted, their cardioid response means you simply hear more direct sound, reducing the influence of the room.
They are both full range , the 8Cs even have their own EQ so you can reduce and room mode issues called by their full-range bass response.
Keith

 

[Joe P]

What’s a ‘good’ loudspeaker? Is it ‘better’ than a good ‘loudspeaker’?

Joe

 

[Woodface]

It’s the bass units that bump the price up; the top speakers on their own are £10kish so those are in the same ballpark as the D&Ds.

Is that the BXT module?

 

[AndyU]

Is that the BXT module?

yes, it’s that that really pushes the price up. The BXT module is big and full of drive units and electronics so I guess it had to be expensive. Mind you, if what Keith used to claim about the speakers was true, that they were flat to 20Hz and absolutely immune to the room, the BXT modules would be a complete waste of money. Hype today, gone tomorrow.

 

[Woodface]

yes, it’s that that really pushes the price up. The BXT module is big and full of drive units and electronics so I guess it had to be expensive. Mind you, if what Keith used to claim about the speakers was true, that they were flat to 20Hz and absolutely immune to the room, the BXT modules would be a complete waste of money. Hype today, gone tomorrow.

Ha, ha, yes, I did think that

 

[Purité Audio]

yes, it’s that that really pushes the price up. The BXT module is big and full of drive units and electronics so I guess it had to be expensive. Mind you, if what Keith used to claim about the speakers was true, that they were flat to 20Hz and absolutely immune to the room, the BXT modules would be a complete waste of money. Hype today, gone tomorrow.

Andy I just happened to be re-arranging the Kiis and I thought I would make a quick measurement , same channel, but one has BXT enabled.


Keith

 

[camverton]

Hi Keith, just out of interest what is the smoothing on that graph? It didn't look too bad until I noticed the "coarse" dB scaling!

Andy, I thought the difference with and without the BXT module quite subtle, as Keith's graph might indicate, but that difference was very important. It would be interesting to know where the crossovers are with and without the BXT bass module and whether its use takes the audible strain off the upper unit. I certainly wouldn't consider the Kii without the bass module and I suppose with it I would have rated it as very good if at one third the price in comparison to other speakers I know, even taking into account not needing an amp or dac. Having said that, for those for whom its particular cardioid characteristics are important, and who are money no object, I suppose it could be a good choice. A decent, but expensive, monitoring tool but not for me as a means of enjoying music. I did like the look of it though, but then I tend to close my eyes when listening to music or have the lighting very low.

I have found that in my room bass can look similar on paper but sound very different as to how well it reproduces low instruments.

 

[Purité Audio]

Why not post a plot of your speakers Malcolm?
Keith

 

[Elephantears]

Andy I just happened to be re-arranging the Kiis and I thought I would make a quick measurement , same channel, but one has BXT enabled.


Keith

Crikey, the mid-range is all over the place. Surely this isn't what Floyd Toole was dreaming of?

 

[ToTo Man]

Hi Keith, just out of interest what is the smoothing on that graph? It didn't look too bad until I noticed the "coarse" dB scaling!

+1. I wish folk would adopt a standard Y-axis of between 40dB and 60dB to make it easier to compare responses. I usually use a 50dB scale from 40dB to 90dB but have been recently using a 40dB scale to make the deviations from flat even more obvious to see.

A 120dB scale is taking the piss, Keith! I'm guessing you've also applied either 1/12 or 1/6 smoothing to those graphs? I'd be interested in seeing the unadulterated waterfall plots...

 

[Purité Audio]

Simply posted to illustrate the difference between BXT on and off for Andy’s benefit.
Keith

 

[ToTo Man]

Simply posted to illustrate the difference between BXT on and off for Andy’s benefit.
Keith

This would have been easier to illustrate IMO if you'd narrowed the Y-axis a bit. If readers didn't pay attention to the abnormal 120dB axis then they may wrongly conclude that the BXT units make hardly any difference. TBH even accounting for the 120dB scale it isn't clear to me if the BXT units are worth the extra £££. Frequency response of course tells but a small part of the story.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

I don’t think the purpose of the BXT is low end extension, although I expect that it allows the speakers to maintain their output at higher levels. Rather its purpose is to extend cardioid dispersion to lower frequencies and to reduce the effect of floor bounce.

 

[Joe P]

Lee,

I don’t think the purpose of the BXT is low end extension

It sure looks that way. The green and purple lines on the plot are almost the same.

Joe

 

[camverton]

Why not post a plot of your speakers Malcolm?
Keith

Is that a type of smoothing?

Seriously though, I can’t see how posting a plot of my room + speaker would help anyone interpret your plot. I don’t have an anechoic chamber handy so can’t post a useful plot of my speakers. The degree or type of smoothing is needed to interpret a plot; why post a plot without it?

 

[camverton]

I don’t think the purpose of the BXT is low end extension, although I expect that it allows the speakers to maintain their output at higher levels. Rather its purpose is to extend cardioid dispersion to lower frequencies and to reduce the effect of floor bounce.

Good point, I’m guessing that it’s use will also reduce the load on the top unit, it certainly improved the sound in a subtle but important way when I heard them.