How much difference between streamers when using own dac?

[Del monaco]

I can believe that some people have tried different transports into a DAC and heard no difference whilst other people have tried different transports into a different DAC and have heard a difference - hence the differing opinions. Could it be that that some DACs are more susceptible to the transport than others?

I use a Naim DAC with a HDX as the transport which sounds streets ahead of the Macbook, Squeezebox and similar devices I've tried. Could it be that the nDac can distinguish the type of digital transport fed into it via some bytes in the bitstream and therefore its software raises the performance level when being fed by an expensive Naim source?

Just a thought!

If it sounds better to you that’s great. I believe expectation bias and volume levelling are a factor in what peo0le are hearing.

 

[Mentt]

I can believe that some people have tried different transports into a DAC and heard no difference whilst other people have tried different transports into a different DAC and have heard a difference - hence the differing opinions. Could it be that that some DACs are more susceptible to the transport than others?

I use a Naim DAC with a HDX as the transport which sounds to my ears streets ahead of the Macbook, Squeezebox and similar devices I've tried. Could it be that the nDac can distinguish the type of digital transport fed into it via some bytes in the bitstream and therefore its software raises the performance level when being fed by an expensive Naim source?

Just a thought!

Difference between digital transports are more noticeable on highend speakers

 

[Mentt]

I already did. See what I have.
And I have some old posts here and on Computer Audiophile.

I always say that if you don’t hear difference between cheap component(computer) and expensive one(streamer) it is actually good thing. You can buy cheapest one and you are set

 

[Del monaco]

Difference between digital transports are more noticeable on highend speakers

I listened using ML CLXs. No perceivable differences.

 

[Purité Audio]

I always say that if you don’t hear difference between cheap component(computer) and expensive one(streamer) it is actually good thing. You can buy cheapest one and you are set

You are obviously deaf Del monaco, (as am I).
Keith

 

[Del monaco]

You are obviously deaf Del monaco.
Keith

Pardon

 

[Strictly Stereo]

That was an add on to the main article.He just fancied doing it. Rather selective?

Was this directed at me? I was looking for the article that you referred to. I made a guess based on your directions. If I guessed wrong then please provide a link to the correct article.

 

[Mentt]

I listened using ML CLXs. No perceivable differences.

I listen on Spender D9 and difference between Aurender A10 and notebook with windows is truly noticeable

 

[Del monaco]

Was this directed at me? I was looking for the article that you referred to. I made a guess based on your directions. If I guessed wrong then please provide a link to the correct article.

Builds on the previous article. See the quote above. That was the main point I was referring to.Im not here to irritate, just point out my bemusement at some of these claims. I believe Archimago’s quote to be true and I have listened to a range of pricey streamers through very revealing speakers. When others say night and day and dramatic improvements I become very sceptical. I would have stayed with my laptop with the excellent JRiver if I didn’t need to do so much work on it. I loved the sound and it was no different really to what I’ve heard since. I worry that people are being hoodwinked.

 

[Del monaco]

I listen on Spender D9 and difference between Aurender A10 and notebook with windows is truly noticeable

Great but I heard no perceivable differences through the CLXs.

 

[John Phillips]

All streamers should sound the same, and all dacs should be impervious to fluctuating PSU's and signal integrity- but they aren't.

Yes. Addressing the DAC part of an audio system, IMHO you are quite correct that the right architectural principle is that it should be as immune as possible to data timing errors (jitter) and to electrical noise on its signal and power inputs.

Looking through the test archives on www.audiosciencereview.com (and I recall one very expensive DAC measured in HFN) it is clear that some DACs are certainly not immune enough. So you can't yet rely on good engineering without checking. If you have one of these examples you might find that the streamer or some tweaks to cables or PSU have an impact.

However many measurements from Stereophile, HFN, www.audiosciencereview.com, the Archimago blog, etc. can be found of even inexpensive DACs that do not pass on significant jitter to the audio output, or noise from "noisy" streamer sources such as USB. This evidence says to me that good DAC engineering is perfectly possible and does not need to be costly.

From my PoV, the art seems to be to discover ways of finding out which DACs are not well enough engineered and avoiding them, then selecting from the good ones according to personal preference.

 

[Mentt]

Great but I heard no perceivable differences through the CLXs.

And there is nothing wrong with that

 

[Ian M]

I remember when all turntables sounded the same. Maybe people think they still do.

 

[deserter]

My take on this, as a relative newcomer to streaming etc.

Playing Spotify from my laptop via usb output into a TeddyPardo DAC sound is ok - not as good as CD at its best and definitely not as good as Vinyl. But it’s definitely listenable . Same experience with Qobuz, actually Qobuz sounds quite a bit better than Spotify, as it should.

Playing the same tracks from the same platforms, using LMS via my squeezebox , in to the same DAC , the sound is less good

As the only variable is the introduction of the Squeezebox in to the path, the Squeezebox is contributing
In a negative way.

It’s not expectation bias as I REALLY REALLY want the Squeezebox to sound equally as good , but it doesn’t. I’ve proved this to myself, and others , repeatedly. It’s not about volume matching and I don’t need to do a blind f@@@ing comparison as I’m not an idiot.

I have no explanation as I’m technically a numpty .

The only possible variable is that I have to take the signal from the Squeezebox to the Dac via optical or Coax as it doesn’t have USB output, but surely that can’t make that much difference - can it?

I’m happy to be corrected but I don’t want any lectures on expectation bias

 

[Ian M]

My take on this, as a relative newcomer to streaming etc.

Playing Spotify from my laptop via usb output into a TeddyPardo DAC sound is ok - not as good as CD at its best and definitely not as good as Vinyl. But it’s definitely listenable . Same experience with Qobuz, actually Qobuz sounds quite a bit better than Spotify, as it should.

Playing the same tracks from the same platforms, using LMS via my squeezebox , in to the same DAC , the sound is less good

As the only variable is the introduction of the Squeezebox in to the path, the Squeezebox is contributing
In a negative way.

It’s not expectation bias as I REALLY REALLY want the Squeezebox to sound equally as good , but it doesn’t. I’ve proved this to myself, and others , repeatedly. It’s not about volume matching and I don’t need to do a blind f@@@ing comparison as I’m not an idiot.

I have no explanation as I’m technically a numpty .

The only possible variable is that I have to take the signal from the Squeezebox to the Dac via optical or Coax as it doesn’t have USB output, but surely that can’t make that much difference - can it?

I’m happy to be corrected but I don’t want any lectures on expectation bias

Is the DAC still reporting the same bit rate. I vaigly remember having to install a plugin on the squeezebox to enable it to pass through without downsampling I think. Someone will correct me.

Edit; It was called EDO and was to enable the USB output I think, it was a long time ago!

 

[Mentt]

It’s not about volume matching and I don’t need to do a blind f@@@ing comparison as I’m not an idiot.

Amen to that

 

[Curtis]

My take on this, as a relative newcomer to streaming etc.

Playing Spotify from my laptop via usb output into a TeddyPardo DAC sound is ok - not as good as CD at its best and definitely not as good as Vinyl. But it’s definitely listenable . Same experience with Qobuz, actually Qobuz sounds quite a bit better than Spotify, as it should.

Playing the same tracks from the same platforms, using LMS via my squeezebox , in to the same DAC , the sound is less good

As the only variable is the introduction of the Squeezebox in to the path, the Squeezebox is contributing
In a negative way.

It’s not expectation bias as I REALLY REALLY want the Squeezebox to sound equally as good , but it doesn’t. I’ve proved this to myself, and others , repeatedly. It’s not about volume matching and I don’t need to do a blind f@@@ing comparison as I’m not an idiot.

I have no explanation as I’m technically a numpty .

The only possible variable is that I have to take the signal from the Squeezebox to the Dac via optical or Coax as it doesn’t have USB output, but surely that can’t make that much difference - can it?

I’m happy to be corrected but I don’t want any lectures on expectation bias

Theres a very good chance that the dac performs better via its usb input than its optical or coax.

 

[Purité Audio]

My take on this, as a relative newcomer to streaming etc.

Playing Spotify from my laptop via usb output into a TeddyPardo DAC sound is ok - not as good as CD at its best and definitely not as good as Vinyl. But it’s definitely listenable . Same experience with Qobuz, actually Qobuz sounds quite a bit better than Spotify, as it should.

Playing the same tracks from the same platforms, using LMS via my squeezebox , in to the same DAC , the sound is less good

As the only variable is the introduction of the Squeezebox in to the path, the Squeezebox is contributing
In a negative way.

It’s not expectation bias as I REALLY REALLY want the Squeezebox to sound equally as good , but it doesn’t. I’ve proved this to myself, and others , repeatedly. It’s not about volume matching and I don’t need to do a blind f@@@ing comparison as I’m not an idiot.

I have no explanation as I’m technically a numpty .

The only possible variable is that I have to take the signal from the Squeezebox to the Dac via optical or Coax as it doesn’t have USB output, but surely that can’t make that much difference - can it?

I’m happy to be corrected but I don’t want any lectures on expectation bias

If you can consistently pick the SB unsighted and level matched then it well may be affecting the sound in some way.
Keith

 

[deserter]

Theres a very good chance that the dac performs better via its usb input than its optical or coax.

So I gather. I need to get my hands on a later Squeezebox with a USB output to be sure , but the difference is fairly substantial .

 

[Del monaco]

Yes. Addressing the DAC part of an audio system, IMHO you are quite correct that the right architectural principle is that it should be as immune as possible to data timing errors (jitter) and to electrical noise on its signal and power inputs.

Looking through the test archives on www.audiosciencereview.com (and I recall one very expensive DAC measured in HFN) it is clear that some DACs are certainly not immune enough. So you can't yet rely on good engineering without checking. If you have one of these examples you might find that the streamer or some tweaks to cables or PSU have an impact.

However many measurements from Stereophile, HFN, www.audiosciencereview.com, the Archimago blog, etc. can be found of even inexpensive DACs that do not pass on significant jitter to the audio output, or noise from "noisy" streamer sources such as USB. This evidence says to me that good DAC engineering is perfectly possible and does not need to be costly.

From my PoV, the art seems to be to discover ways of finding out which DACs are not well enough engineered and avoiding them, then selecting from the good ones according to personal preference.

I

My take on this, as a relative newcomer to streaming etc.

Playing Spotify from my laptop via usb output into a TeddyPardo DAC sound is ok - not as good as CD at its best and definitely not as good as Vinyl. But it’s definitely listenable . Same experience with Qobuz, actually Qobuz sounds quite a bit better than Spotify, as it should.

Playing the same tracks from the same platforms, using LMS via my squeezebox , in to the same DAC , the sound is less good

As the only variable is the introduction of the Squeezebox in to the path, the Squeezebox is contributing
In a negative way.

It’s not expectation bias as I REALLY REALLY want the Squeezebox to sound equally as good , but it doesn’t. I’ve proved this to myself, and others , repeatedly. It’s not about volume matching and I don’t need to do a blind f@@@ing comparison as I’m not an idiot.

I have no explanation as I’m technically a numpty .

The only possible variable is that I have to take the signal from the Squeezebox to the Dac via optical or Coax as it doesn’t have USB output, but surely that can’t make that much difference - can it?

I’m happy to be corrected but I don’t want any lectures on expectation bias

No lecturing but Spotify is compressed and will sound less good than either Qobuz or Tidal Hifi. The Touch needs a plug in for the usb out to work. Mine sounds ok with Spotify but much better with the higher bit rate of Tidal HiFi.