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Hong Kong

wacko said:
Events in the USA and UK have rather blurred the benefits of democracy.
The Party in China can be brutal to perceived threats but for the average citizen it has guided the country to unprecedented economic wealth.
What is the old saying: It is the economy, stupid.
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It leaves people alone who don’t threaten it, people I know from China say you can openly criticise the regime and be left alone, get a following and you get a knock on the door. It happens to some extent in the west as well, a good example is Craig Murray, I don’t always agree with what he says but he has had and continues to get a lot of hassle from the state and in one case a private wealthy individual.
 
wacko said:
Sovereignty. I don't agree with your last sentence for at least 99% of the population.
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If you give people a place to live where you can express your own ideas openly without fear of the state at your door then sovereignty is going to take care of itself. With respect to my last statement it was perhaps too broad but certainly with things like the linked article below happening there I would imagine a lot more people are hyper aware of everything they say most of time in a way that could be described as fear. I would certainly be looking for the exits.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-48552907
 
A few years back, some senior Chinese official, when responding to criticisms on their human rights record, said that China put human rights at the top of their agenda by making sure their 1.4 billion population is fed, sheltered, educated, employed, etc. You might think this is BS because to you, these are all given. But in a country where they have suffered wars, famines, poverty, natural and human disasters in the past one and a half centuries, stability is what most of the people want. But as the basic needs are satisfied and people start going up the hierarchy, there will be demands for other rights.
 
Alan Chung said:
A few years back, some senior Chinese official, when responding to criticisms on their human rights record, said that China put human rights at the top of their agenda by making sure their 1.4 billion population is fed, sheltered, educated, employed, etc. You might think this is BS because to you, these are all given. But in a country where they have suffered wars, famines, poverty, natural and human disasters in the past one and a half centuries, stability is what most of the people want. But as the basic needs are satisfied and people start going up the hierarchy, there will be demands for other rights.
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One reason I was told from someone who grew up there that the reason is it is accepted is that there is no real tradition of democracy, they have had Emperors for thousands of years and the current system is not a lot different.
 
russel said:
One reason I was told from someone who grew up there that the reason is it is accepted is that there is no real tradition of democracy, they have had Emperors for thousands of years and the current system is not a lot different.
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We had a Chinese guest lecturer once at Uni who amongst many other things asserted that the CCP was more responsive to its people’s needs, because its legitimacy was based solely on its success in doing so; where citizens in Democracies tolerate far poorer governance because they are seen to have a democratic mandate!

I think there might be some legitimacy to that in so far as the critique of the failings of democracies go. But I’m pretty sure the CCP does not in any way represent a preferable model. That said I don’t like government full stop, the older I get the more I find myself tending towards anarchy at least philosophically (I am rather more pragmatic in practice.) People who want to govern others are invariably psychopaths, Douglas Adams had the right idea when he said nobody capable of rising to high political office should be allowed to do the job and the only people fit to rule are those that do not want to!
 
russel said:
it is accepted is that there is no real tradition of democracy
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djftw said:
the CCP was more responsive to its people’s needs, because its legitimacy was based solely on its success in doing so; where citizens in Democracies tolerate far poorer governance because they are seen to have a democratic mandate!
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I remember having a discussion on this with a friend and he argued that if India could have democracy, why couldn't China. Interesting comparison of the two oldest nations in the world with similar population I said, but my take of this is if I have to live in a country with millions of people still living in slums, hundreds of people still die from falling off the top of the train every month. I'd rather be without democracy.
 
Nice to see someone posting who knows what the réal situation is now, and what it was, Alan.

I can't see any way that Taiwan will be allowed to join China unless the people there voted for it. People forget that their old leader, Chang Kai-Shek, was notorious for both his scorched earth policies during the civil war, not to mention his army's behaviour towards Mao's communist party. Remember, the communist part was a popular movement, which is why, in the end, it won. Even Hurley in Beijing advised his president to consider supporting Mao and not CKS, mainly because he recognized the true nature of what was happening. Instead, Truman moved CKS to Taiwan to form opposition to the communists, which has been largely unsuccessful, and, let's be honest, expensive since much money had to be poured into that unlikely country.
 
Alan Chung said:
I remember having a discussion on this with a friend and he argued that if India could have democracy, why couldn't China. Interesting comparison of the two oldest nations in the world with similar population I said, but my take of this is if I have to live in a country with millions of people still living in slums, hundreds of people still die from falling off the top of the train every month. I'd rather be without democracy.
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The problem with a lack of democracy for China is that it will become very difficult to criticise poor decisions as people will be too scared, ultimately this will lead to massive inefficiency. Pollution kills a lot more people in China than fall off trains in India!
 
russel, you have to look at Chinese history and its society before you make rash statements like that.
 
avole said:
russel, you have to look at Chinese history and its society before you make rash statements like that.
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People have always been scared to talk in China. They were when I was working there 20 years ago. Mention Mao, government corruption, police brutality etc in the office, see what happens. They are probaly scared still and will always be scared as long as you have fascist arseholes for leaders that you can't get rid of and who have education camps etc.
 
Am I the only one finding this backhanded support for a brutal authoritarian regime with a truly horrific human rights record absolutely nauseating?
 
kensalriser said:
Am I the only one finding this backhanded support for a brutal authoritarian regime with a truly horrific human rights record absolutely nauseating?
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This forum is bizarre. Giving any slack whatsoever stinks of people being scared of being accused of racism.

Fvck the Chinese government. What more needs to be said?
 
Seriously, of course China has its terrible side - just ask Australians re investment there and the impact on the environment - but the Chinese are a lot better than their portrayal in so much of western media.
 
avole said:
Seriously, of course China has its terrible side - just ask Australians re investment there and the impact on the environment - but the Chinese are a lot better than their portrayal in so much of western media.
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The Chinese what? People or people in charge? There is a huge difference.
 
Also, you need to explain why you think fascism and communism are the same thing.
 
avole said:
richardg, your ignorance is far from bliss.
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Whatever. Tell me why I am able to take the piss out of the tories (and do). Noone here pushes back. Prod the Chinese regime and people say dumb shit like what you just said.

Terll me who you would rather live under, Johnson or Shitping?
 
Sorry, Rick, looks like its bye bye time. Hate to be brutal, but you really are a ......head. I'll leave others to fill in the blanks.

I'd happily live in China, by the way. Yes, some of the values are very different from ours, but there is a reason why there's been no anti-communist révolution there.
 
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