Hi-Fi Choice on the endangered species list!
- Thread starter Evil Emperor
- Start date
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
I blame the internet, where idiots can masquerade as experts. A discerning person might be able to spot the illusion fairly quickly, but a newbie happening upon a vigorous discussion would be none the wiser. As if to prove your point, I regularly read about tosh spouted as gospel here on PFM - but I have given up my battle against this rising tide, except where directed at me.
Evil Emperor
Taller Than Stalin
Except there's not much in the way of online magazine, that doesn't suffer the same problems as either the forums or the print magazines. Most of the online magazines are e-versions of print editions (with all the financial hang-ups of a print magazine), while those that aren't are usually terrible (Six Moons!) or clones of print magazines without the print costs (Tone). The only ones that seems to offer something genuinely useful are Computer Audiophile (but that falls dangerously close to 'Gordon Rankin is God' fanboidom at times), and SoundStage (which does provide independent listening tests and measurement, but seems to think the world revolves around Canada).
Also, it's getting increasingly difficult to fall back on 'no substitute for listening' now because the shops are dying and not stocking a representative sample of products we need to hear. The UK's relatively lucky here, in that if you need to travel the length and breadth of the country to listen to something, you are never more than a few hundred miles from a store. The Yanks talk about intercontinental travel to hear their next purchase. Many of us soon will only discover how it sounds when we open the box, and we need more information that just isn't happening now.
Tony L
Administrator
I guess I've got a rather different perspective given I own this place, and predictably I don't agree with much written above. As some is coming from industry stakeholders I feel I should also state the case for sites such as this one.
To my mind the printed press comprises a very similar kind of self-appointed 'expert' to those often found online, but presents them on a pedestal without providing any real opportunity to challenge, assess or quiz this alleged knowledge and experience. Magazine writers, and yes, I've met several, tend just to be keen enthusiasts who have got themselves a job writing for a magazine. There are few with qualifications in music or electronics, and often little experience in audio manufacture, marketing or retail. They are just punters with a pen, just as most folk here are just punters with a keyboard. I know this as I've been asked to write for such publications myself a couple of times in the past (I've always ended up declining).
The other thing is that the magazines can't be viewed as a whole, they are very different things title to title. Some, e.g. Stereophile attempt to straddle the gap between objectivism and subjectivism and are genuinely useful as they publish measurements almost impossible to obtain elsewhere. This is the real area where magazines have an advantage, yet strangely few choose to use it. At the other extreme we have titles such as What Hi-Fi that appear little more than advertising placement / advertorial for budget manufacturers and retail chains. In the middle-ground lies the flowery subjectivist hyperbole & pretty picture filled Plus and the Stereophile-lite of HiFi News. I guess HiFi World is the closest to the modern forum model as it does tend to track real-world trends and seems to consider audio as a historic whole rather than concentrating purely on whatever flavour of the month current review samples it has been possible to blag. My personal favourites are Stereophile and The Gramophone, though the latter isn't really a hi-fi mag at all.
Am I sad to see Choice go? Yes, especially for the people who worked there, though hopefully it will make the remaining titles a little stronger. The market probably needed thinning out a bit, and being blunt Choice was about the weakest left (not my least favourite, that's another thing).
Do I think magazines are the future, or that they even have a future? No, certainly not in the long term. Sites like Audio Asylum, AV Forums, DIYAudio, pfm, WigWam, SteveHoffman. AoS etc all provide more of everything: more knowledge, ignorance, detail, depth, logic, hyperbole, sense, assistance, idiocy, argument, opinion etc than all of the printed press put together – they do this as the hi-fi writers, manufacturers, retailers musicians and punters etc are all here and all interacting in real-time. Witness things like the never-ending Audiolab thread here on pfm – real-time communication that is actually shaping future products. Yes, it may be a bit raucous and irreverent at times, and I frequently stare at the screen in utter disbelief at the degree of stupidity or rudeness that appears, but much of the time there are fresh ideas, help and shared knowledge moves us all forward. There is clearly a need to sort the wheat from the chaff, this is true with all aspects of the internet. It is blindingly obvious that not all posters are created equal, and some may not not even be what they appear, but this goes for the conventional audio press too, and arguably more so (examples could easily be cited here, but I'm not looking for a fight).
The real competition to the printed press is probably coming from online titles such as Tone Audio and Affordable Audio. As stated earlier my view is that audio writers are by nature self-appointed 'experts' – all one needs to do to be a hi-fi reviewer is to declare oneself as such and get published. This clearly opens the door to publish oneself. These two titles prove it is possible to do so to a very, very high level. I'd recommend folk to take a look at these and ask themselves is there any real difference in quality to the established printed media? My guess is that the future lies in a blend of this kind of publication and the online discussion forum. I'm not saying they will merge, in fact I think they are far, far stronger apart, but these are the two areas I'd put my money on were I asked to predict the future. And yes, I do have my money on it!
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Forums are fine; one soon learns which posters have something useful to say, which have bees in their bonnets about something, and which are plain loonies. The advantage a magazine reviewer has over someone recommending something in a forum post is that the former has probably heard more equipment over the years, but it's no more or less likely that their opinion will chime with one's own.
The only magazine I read now is Plush, and even that interests me less with each passing issue, especially as much of its content was 'previously published in The Absolute Sound' and some of the equipment in such reviews isn't actually available in the UK.
On a more general point, some of the older magazine reviewers are getting on a bit (to put it tactfully) so one has to wonder how reliable their hearing is these days.
The only magazine I read now is Plush, and even that interests me less with each passing issue, especially as much of its content was 'previously published in The Absolute Sound' and some of the equipment in such reviews isn't actually available in the UK.
On a more general point, some of the older magazine reviewers are getting on a bit (to put it tactfully) so one has to wonder how reliable their hearing is these days.
Tony,
A lot of what you say chimes with my views, and you have said it much better than I can. I certainly did not want to imply that PFM was utter rubbish; the fact that I am still here testifies to the contrary. This is the only hifi forum I participate in, and I've learnt and benefited from the posts here in the past. There is just a lot of "noise" on fora and one really needs to figure out (over time) who knows what they are talking about and who are the idiots.
I am definitely a Luddite when it comes to print media -- I still much prefer to read the papers or a magazine than to do so online. It's sad that many hifi magazines have gone out of business but frankly most of the current surviving ones do not have much of interest to me.
A lot of what you say chimes with my views, and you have said it much better than I can. I certainly did not want to imply that PFM was utter rubbish; the fact that I am still here testifies to the contrary. This is the only hifi forum I participate in, and I've learnt and benefited from the posts here in the past. There is just a lot of "noise" on fora and one really needs to figure out (over time) who knows what they are talking about and who are the idiots.
I am definitely a Luddite when it comes to print media -- I still much prefer to read the papers or a magazine than to do so online. It's sad that many hifi magazines have gone out of business but frankly most of the current surviving ones do not have much of interest to me.
dave
Plywood King
This is the only method for assessing gear that works IMO. I've read a few reviews over the years where the writer did a pretty good job of describing some of the sound attributes but in no way, shape or fashion did their description actually tell me what it sounded like. For me, it's still a throw of the dart.
HiFi mags are a detriment to our hobby and the poorest source of information available, even the online ones that have been mentioned in this thread.
This is because ALL of the editorial staff and ALL of the writers ALLWAYS toe the line and ALLWAYS spout the same opinions.
Can anyone name even a single contributor that expresses an objective/scientific take on the this hobby? By necessity its always merchants first - hobbyists second.
Louballoo
This is because ALL of the editorial staff and ALL of the writers ALLWAYS toe the line and ALLWAYS spout the same opinions.
Can anyone name even a single contributor that expresses an objective/scientific take on the this hobby? By necessity its always merchants first - hobbyists second.
Louballoo
Thanks Joe, Julian Hirsch was a good guy, I miss his columns.
I have only scanned the Hi Fi Critic, I will make a point of reading further.
Your Pal from a cool, clear and sunny Alberta
Louballoo
Chaps
In the main, most magazine reviewers are full of their own importance. They have the advantage of being able to spout their views without fear of being challenged. In real life most of them are no better or no worse than most of us lot.
The main problem of thuggery that Evil Emperor alludes to is the fact that it is easy for some inadequate little creep to sign into a forum under a non de plume and then he becomes very brave in getting to arguments, issuing threats and hounding other people they don't like. This could be solved by making everyone publish their names and addresses but unfortunately that will never happen.
Regards
Mick
In the main, most magazine reviewers are full of their own importance. They have the advantage of being able to spout their views without fear of being challenged. In real life most of them are no better or no worse than most of us lot.
The main problem of thuggery that Evil Emperor alludes to is the fact that it is easy for some inadequate little creep to sign into a forum under a non de plume and then he becomes very brave in getting to arguments, issuing threats and hounding other people they don't like. This could be solved by making everyone publish their names and addresses but unfortunately that will never happen.
Regards
Mick
Tony L
Administrator
We could call it 'A Burglar's Guide To Expensive HiFi Location'. Do you think we should publish phone numbers too so they can check when the owner is out?
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
There could be a 'poster is tooled up' box to tick or untick.
And when the requests for photographic evidence begin...
Think these things through Joe!
Tony
One of my best friends is a policeman. Thefts of hifi equipment is almost non existant because there are no dodgy customers who want it anymore.
A burglar would rather nick a wrist watch than an amplifier.
Regards
Mick
dave
Plywood King
I made the mistake once of planning and purchasing a system arround Julian's recommendations as my first hifi back in 1970 as those of us following Stereo Review knew auditions weren't neccessary as everything but cartridges and speakers sounded alike. The system consisted of a Dual 1215 turntable w/Shure V-15 III cart, Marantz 1060 integrated amp and B*I*C Formula IV loudspeakers. The V15 III of course measured and tracked as well as most anything else at the time and most importantly was used by Julian at home so I figured it had to be good and it was compatible tonearm-wise with the 1215 TT. The Formula IVs sounded ok in the showroom on the end of a slighter more expensive system but since all of the other bits couldn't sound different compared to my choices according to Julian, I felt they were a safe bet and as good spec-wise as anything else in their price range.
Long story short...it was the most God-awful hifi I've ever heard in my life.
EDIT: possibly another that was worse: Naim CDS and 52 feeding Krell 600 monoblocks into Apogee Grands
hifinutt
hifinutt
thats reassuring
Not if you are a watch collector.
