Hard times for Linn

[tiggers]

Well, at exactly the same time I was working in a HiFi store part time, which sold none of the three and it too was buzzing. Decks on offer were Thorens, Elite Townshend, Pink Triangle and the odd cheaper model from Japan. I didn't get to hear a Linn until I wanted to upgrade my Thorens TD150 and auditioned an LP12, a PT and a Rock Mk2. The PT won, quite easily but I never brought one because in my home system, the Rock was better. The Linn was last. Later, as Linn fever developed I visited another Linn dealer in Cambridge for an arranged audition and was met with such a dismissive attitude about all my HiFi ideas and current kit (some brought with me for comparison) that I walked away before any listening took place at all. After that I gave up and joined the 'round earthers'. You see the point is, that each of us have our own HiFi journey, brands we like, dealers we trust, etc, but at least, I feel. my choices were never made for me by over-evangalstic dealers with a clear bias. Selling good kit is one thing. being rude about everyone elses' only works if you preach to the converted. I wasn't converted and clearly, you were. There it is Moving on!...

How can a dealer being rude about a rival product make your ears hear anything differently as that is what it would take to change my mind about a piece of equipment. It sounds the same no matter how good or bad someone tells you it is! Whinging about dubious marketing and shady dealers is for people who can't make up their own mind!

 

[linnfomaniac83]

No. But that's no big deal.


To be fair a Sonos starter streaming setup is dirt cheap compared to the entry Linn sekrt streamers.

We are talking £299 for a Connect vs £1700 ish for a Linn streamer. So you might expect differences.

Sonos on board dacs not stunning imho either. But they aren't poor. Were you to pair gen sonos with a better dac, you can elevate its performance compared to a Linn box. £1400 buys a decent dac.

As you point out Linn SW, connections etc, not as good as Sonos. ANd that is lines biggest challenges - SW and interoperability.

No, the Linn system is more open (surprisingly) and their streamers do AirPlay, and room correction. You can use them with any UPNP/DLNA streaming software, so they’ll work on the same server, and with the same control points as streamers from other brands, Sonos is a closed system.

Yes the Linn system is more expensive but it does sound better and do more... I’m not knocking Sonos in any way, I think they’re superb VFM, I’m just pointing out that the Linn DS system isn’t the same and that it is a premium product... worth the extra? That’s entirely up to the buyer, but plenty of people (myself included) have bought into the Linn system.

 

[Rockmeister]

How can a dealer being rude about a rival product make your ears hear anything differently as that is what it would take to change my mind about a piece of equipment. It sounds the same no matter how good or bad someone tells you it is! Whinging about dubious marketing and shady dealers is for people who can't make up their own mind!

Que? My ears never got the chance. As in car dealers, if I walk into the showroom and some bloke is rude and tells me my current car is crap, I'll walk. And your last sentence is nonsense. Again. I wasn't 'whinging' I was relating a story to someone else, not you. And pointing out poor customer service and bad manners is always worth doing, and letting him know he'd lost a sale made my point at the time.
Why the flip am I responding to you. Troll feeding isn't one of my usual pastimes. Look, you're not worth the ignore button press trouble, but I'll not be responding to your posts no more.

 

[tiggers]

Que? My ears never got the chance. As in car dealers, if I walk into the showroom and some bloke is rude and tells me my current car is crap, I'll walk. And your last sentence is nonsense. Again. I wasn't 'whinging' I was relating a story to someone else, not you. And pointing out poor customer service and bad manners is always worth doing, and letting him know he'd lost a sale made my point at the time.
Why the flip am I responding to you. Troll feeding isn't one of my usual pastimes. Look, you're not worth the ignore button press trouble, but I'll not be responding to your posts no more.

Grow up! Oh and see if you can have that silly chip on your shoulder surgically removed

 

[Andrew C!]

How can a dealer being rude about a rival product make your ears hear anything differently as that is what it would take to change my mind about a piece of equipment. It sounds the same no matter how good or bad someone tells you it is! Whinging about dubious marketing and shady dealers is for people who can't make up their own mind!

Part of me spending my cash is I give, and expect, cordiality from professionals. If they don't provide this customer service, I'll walk. Plenty of other dealers around selling hifi. I am mindful that there is profit in this stuff, and as such dealers should act accordingly.

 

[tiggers]

Part of me spending my cash is I give, and expect, cordiality from professionals. If they don't provide this customer service, I'll walk. Plenty of other dealers around selling hifi. I am mindful that there is profit in this stuff, and as such dealers should act accordingly.

I agree, but I can't get my head round all this nonsense about Linn dealers in general being rude and up to dubious marketing techniques etc. Almost like there was a Cult of Linn! I'm sure there will have been a few odd types, but I knew a number of dealers in the 80s some of whom sold Linn and others who didn't. They all seemed good at their job and demo'd equipment so people could make up their own mind.... yes they all implied the gear they sold was the best, but that's sales. I just find all this borderline animosity towards the way Linn dealers did business a bit strange as unless they put a gun to your head I'm not sure how you could end up buying something you didn't like the sound of.

 

[Eyebroughty]

Well, at exactly the same time I was working in a HiFi store part time, which sold none of the three and it too was buzzing. Decks on offer were Thorens, Elite Townshend, Pink Triangle and the odd cheaper model from Japan. I didn't get to hear a Linn until I wanted to upgrade my Thorens TD150 and auditioned an LP12, a PT and a Rock Mk2. The PT won, quite easily but I never brought one because in my home system, the Rock was better. The Linn was last. Later, as Linn fever developed I visited another Linn dealer in Cambridge for an arranged audition and was met with such a dismissive attitude about all my HiFi ideas and current kit (some brought with me for comparison) that I walked away before any listening took place at all. After that I gave up and joined the 'round earthers'. You see the point is, that each of us have our own HiFi journey, brands we like, dealers we trust, etc, but at least, I feel. my choices were never made for me by over-evangalstic dealers with a clear bias. Selling good kit is one thing. being rude about everyone elses' only works if you preach to the converted. I wasn't converted and clearly, you were. There it is Moving on!...

I fully appreciate that there were other offerings about so your point is very valid and I accept that, as you say each to their own.

I did visit other dealers and had a listen as well, some even had an LP12 as a comparison to their preferred offerings which never seemed to play as well in a non Linn dealer, but there you go.

Yes I heard items that did sound very good and maybe I would have bought had I not heard the LP12, I was converted by the sound it gave not by the dealer.

I also have seen Linn and Naim dealers being very dismissive of someone who prefered equipment other than Linn or Naim, maybe I was lucky in the dealer that I always went to was never like that and I was in the shop weekly.

As for people being swayed by a dealers sales pitch either good or bad they must not have the abilty to overlook that in favour of at least listening to something that they might find better, however that again is a persons choice and I can understand why.

If you ever wanted to hear someone pitch a sale you should have heard Ivor in full flow, something to behold if you disagreed, but all in good fun, but those days are well past now.

 

[35451]

No, the Linn system is more open (surprisingly) and their streamers do AirPlay, and room correction. You can use them with any UPNP/DLNA streaming software, so they’ll work on the same server, and with the same control points as streamers from other brands, Sonos is a closed system.

Yes the Linn system is more expensive but it does sound better and do more... I’m not knocking Sonos in any way, I think they’re superb VFM, I’m just pointing out that the Linn DS system isn’t the same and that it is a premium product... worth the extra? That’s entirely up to the buyer, but plenty of people (myself included) have bought into the Linn system.

Sonos was just an example. I had both and prefer LMS with SBT with decent dac to anthing else I heard at the price.

Nothing is more open than the LMS architecture.

Without 'getting into it' what you are buying is a PC server hard in a box with a DAC. AirPlay, Dnla? no big deal and Linn are late to the party. Other similar have had it for years. That is at the heart of their challenge - to make a compelling case for people to discern the values of £1500- £15,000 all in one boxes, to the lesser costs from the IT-centric cos, who are sonically right on the mark, and way ahead in terms of software integration and functionality, whilst being vastly cheaper.

Not impossible, but a challenge for the companies future. They need a lot of people like yourself who will buy into their premium systems. Most of the target market are currently streaming from the Cloud, there is myriad of different ways/devices of getting those FLAC streams to a dac - none of which need to cost lots, many of which are wholly software based. I'd hazard a guess that most of the target markets in the 'lifestyle devices' sector, also are not encumbered by views on legacy hi fi, but will be looking at B&O etc.

Good luck to Linn in their new direction.

 

[Rockmeister]

I fully appreciate that there were other offerings about so your point is very valid and I accept that, as you say each to their own.

I did visit other dealers and had a listen as well, some even had an LP12 as a comparison to their preferred offerings which never seemed to play as well in a non Linn dealer, but there you go.

Yes I heard items that did sound very good and maybe I would have bought had I not heard the LP12, I was converted by the sound it gave not by the dealer.

I also have seen Linn and Naim dealers being very dismissive of someone who prefered equipment other than Linn or Naim, maybe I was lucky in the dealer that I always went to was never like that and I was in the shop weekly.

As for people being swayed by a dealers sales pitch either good or bad they must not have the abilty to overlook that in favour of at least listening to something that they might find better, however that again is a persons choice and I can understand why.

If you ever wanted to hear someone pitch a sale you should have heard Ivor in full flow, something to behold if you disagreed, but all in good fun, but those days are well past now.

I was a big valve fan in them days...Peter Qvortrup was not exactly a reticent salesman either

 

[linnfomaniac83]

Sonos was just an example. I had both and prefer LMS with SBT with decent dac to anthing else I heard at the price.

Nothing is more open than the LMS architecture.

Without 'getting into it' what you are buying is a PC server hard in a box with a DAC. AirPlay, Dnla? no big deal and Linn are late to the party. Other similar have had it for years. That is at the heart of their challenge - to make a compelling case for people to discern the values of £1500- £15,000 all in one boxes, to the lesser costs from the IT-centric cos, who are sonically right on the mark, and way ahead in terms of software integration and functionality, whilst being vastly cheaper.

Not impossible, but a challenge for the companies future. They need a lot of people like yourself who will buy into their premium systems. Most of the target market are currently streaming from the Cloud, there is myriad of different ways/devices of getting those FLAC streams to a dac - none of which need to cost lots, many of which are wholly software based. I'd hazard a guess that most of the target markets in the 'lifestyle devices' sector, also are not encumbered by views on legacy hi fi, but will be looking at B&O etc.

Good luck to Linn in their new direction.

I wouldn’t say they’re exactly late to the party, they were dlna compliant from the start in 2007 and added AirPlay around 2012. And it’s neither a PC, nor a server, it’s a streamer, it reads files from a server.

 

[35451]

I wouldn’t say they’re exactly late to the party, they were dlna compliant from the start in 2007 and added AirPlay around 2012. And it’s neither a PC, nor a server, it’s a streamer, it reads files from a server.

Your streamer comprises of a chip on PCB to handle processing, a NIC (network interface card) to enable files to be received) some host software, and a DAC to make the noises you will hear.

That, to anyone who knows their stuff, is a computer/server.

 

[sunbeamgls]

I'm completely confused by the idea of customers queuing up to be abused by dealers and then spending a lot of money on stuff that they don't like the sound of.

 

[sunbeamgls]

Your streamer comprises of a chip on PCB to handle processing, a NIC (network interface card) to enable files to be received) some host software, and a DAC to make the noises you will hear.

That, to anyone who knows their stuff, is a computer/server.

Its definitely not a server. Its a renderer with a DAC. It receives from a server, either locally or across t'internet.

Not that it matters, its still a really good music player whatever anyone calls it. VFM is, of course, entirely a personal thing.

 

[booja30]

Your streamer comprises of a chip on PCB to handle processing, a NIC (network interface card) to enable files to be received) some host software, and a DAC to make the noises you will hear.

That, to anyone who knows their stuff, is a computer/server.

I don't agree.

A server serves data, from storage/cache to clients.

A streamer generally doesn't store content, but receives data from servers, NAS, internet, cloud, etc., in other words it is a client.

 

[35451]

..,,it contains processors, and holds code - an operating system of hard embedded code, and Loaded Sw capable of receiving and acting on instructions from external apps etc. It also has a network interface card, agin managed by on board code to receive manage and process files, presenting them to a DaC for output.

That is a computer. In the same way that a NAS box that runs Linux on a processor in addition to a disc controller. , is in effect a computer.

But if you’d like to educate me on what exactly a renderer is comprised of that is so different, I’m all ears.

 

[booja30]

...
That, to anyone who knows their stuff, is a computer/server.

You said it is a server. A lot of things can be considered computers these days. But not all computers are servers!

 

[cobbers]

Oh good god,who gives a monkeys about Linn.
Many other hi-fi companies have gone to the wall in the meantime,some deservedly.
Life happens.
Should have seen the writing on the wall a lot earlier and acted on it.
OK so it involves possible redundancies,it happens to us all (ex British Steel employee).
Get over it and get on with your life.

 

[Mullardman]

I think what he is driving at is for the most part Bose is shite.

I have a good friend who has one of those Bose Acoutimass things. It's not bad. It's not hi-fi as I understand it.. but it probably delivers music more beterrer than most of the shite sold as hi-fi by the likes of Currys et.al.

On the other hand..About 20 years ago I was involved with both Papworth Audio Technology (mostly valve amps) and Octave Audio (reproductions of Tannoy cabinets up to and including the likes of the GRF Corners etc )...in a private demonstration of the speakers and the amps in a hired room in a Bristol hotel. (NOT the Bressol Show)

By coincidence, there was some sort of Bose staff event in another conference room in the same hotel. Several of them wandered into our room and looked totally bemused. They clearly had no clue what they were looking at and listening to.. which was confirmed when one of them came over to me by the glowing EL34s on the monobloc Papworth amps and said ''These look nice.. Just for show I suppose?"

I briefly tried to explain that these were actually the amplification devices..until it sunk in that I was wasting my time...

 

[Mullardman]

How can a dealer being rude about a rival product make your ears hear anything differently as that is what it would take to change my mind about a piece of equipment. It sounds the same no matter how good or bad someone tells you it is! Whinging about dubious marketing and shady dealers is for people who can't make up their own mind!

Well actually. it isn't whinging.... it is simply reporting. The issue here.. as I've mentioned before.. is that you seem to have considerable difficulty in admitting that not all businesses are honest.

Grow up! Oh and see if you can have that silly chip on your shoulder surgically removed

Glad to see that you have found another playmate who you can accuse of having a chip on their shoulder. How's your shoulder for chips these days?

I agree, but I can't get my head round all this nonsense about Linn dealers in general being rude and up to dubious marketing techniques etc. Almost like there was a Cult of Linn! I'm sure there will have been a few odd types, but I knew a number of dealers in the 80s some of whom sold Linn and others who didn't. They all seemed good at their job and demo'd equipment so people could make up their own mind.... yes they all implied the gear they sold was the best, but that's sales. I just find all this borderline animosity towards the way Linn dealers did business a bit strange as unless they put a gun to your head I'm not sure how you could end up buying something you didn't like the sound of.

It is a recognised part of UK hi-fi history that Linn developed a marketing strategy based on, among other things.. 'rubbishing' the opposition. They also invented the 'tune dem' and actively denied the effect of stereo 'imaging'.. which had me querying openly in the hi fi press.. why they bothered selling speakers in pairs....? For a while.. though before I returned to active interest in hi-fi in the early 1990s.. this also featured what is often called the 'Linn/Naim Hegemony'. It is fact that Linn lost a lot of dealers by insisting they adopted certain trading practices.

And yes.. of course the kit sounds as good/bad whatever the situation... but it does not follow that people reporting bad experiences at Linn dealers are inventing them..were sucked in by them. or have 'chips on their shoulders'.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

Its definitely not a server. Its a renderer with a DAC. It receives from a server, either locally or across t'internet.

Not that it matters, its still a really good music player whatever anyone calls it. VFM is, of course, entirely a personal thing.

Tried telling him that, I give up.