Whatever makes them happy.
Harbeth m40.2 vs Graham ls5/5
- Thread starter Peter_Tos
- Start date
Allaboutmusic
pfm Member
Don’t agree at all with the boomy bass comments, all speakers can boom - completely depends on setup, room and amp driving them. I have the shl5+ in a 6x5m room and only 50cm from back wall, around 2.5m apart and no boom at all. Very neutral and dynamic. Previously I had neat momentum sx3i in the room but in a different position and they boomed until I pulled them a further 10cm out.
tuga
Legal Alien
Again I can't repeat it often enough, the plus versions doesn't boom but I won't be stopping you to repeat that "all" Harbeth 3 way speaker boom, even if you didn't have listened to one.Also 3 way isn't correct, it is a 2,5 way speaker.
Usually it's the room that "booms", unless the speaker is very poorly desing which none of the Harbeths are.
I don't think that Harbeth currently fabricates any 2.5-way speakers.
The SHL5+ is a technically a 3-way 3-driver speaker.
I should possibly add that I do have Harbeth M40.2s, upgrade path being SHL5 -> SHL5+ 40th Anniversary -> M40.2 40th Anniversary.
Very definite change in SHL5 to SHL5+ Anni. At times I had detected a degree of bass overhang on the earlier model - noticable as distinct "boom" on some bass notes and sometimes an overly thick texture in the bass/mid on some pieces of music. Though not by any means always, and they still sounded very good to my ears. The SHL5+ annis brought an immediate and obvious improvement in many areas - any "boom" was now absent*, while overall they seemed much more airy and transparent, and having bought them second-hand without audition, I was delighted with them.
The M40.2s are (as you'd hope from the price differential) better still. Maybe not quite so "airy" (no super-tweeter?) but stunningly transparent and with somehow a fuller and more tactile sound. I don't think subjectively the bass goes much deeper, but they still somehow sound fuller (e.g. deep thrummy cello sound), and less constrained. Are they worth ~ 3x the price of the SHL5+ equivalent? Diminishing returns apply anyway at this level of cost, and only you can judge! I listen almost entirely to classical music, and I think chamber music in particular sounds sublime, with a really vibrant string presence. I have demoed them with jazz and other non-classical music and I think they can sound truly spectacular on that as well. One drawback is that that are so heavy it is difficult to find the will to experiment with room position as much as I would have liked.
I think opera can be challenging in domestic circumstances - e.g. listening to Wagner's ring cycle, it is stretching credibility to have a large orchestra + 8 buxom and very loud Valkyries be in a smallish room! (But can still sound very nice - e.g. Klemperer's ~ 1970 recording of Die Zauberflote sounds marvellous.)
*When I say "absent" I mean subjectively not obvious. Using REW software and measurement, the presence of very large room-modes was obvious. Its amazing how tolerant the ear is!
Very definite change in SHL5 to SHL5+ Anni. At times I had detected a degree of bass overhang on the earlier model - noticable as distinct "boom" on some bass notes and sometimes an overly thick texture in the bass/mid on some pieces of music. Though not by any means always, and they still sounded very good to my ears. The SHL5+ annis brought an immediate and obvious improvement in many areas - any "boom" was now absent*, while overall they seemed much more airy and transparent, and having bought them second-hand without audition, I was delighted with them.
The M40.2s are (as you'd hope from the price differential) better still. Maybe not quite so "airy" (no super-tweeter?) but stunningly transparent and with somehow a fuller and more tactile sound. I don't think subjectively the bass goes much deeper, but they still somehow sound fuller (e.g. deep thrummy cello sound), and less constrained. Are they worth ~ 3x the price of the SHL5+ equivalent? Diminishing returns apply anyway at this level of cost, and only you can judge! I listen almost entirely to classical music, and I think chamber music in particular sounds sublime, with a really vibrant string presence. I have demoed them with jazz and other non-classical music and I think they can sound truly spectacular on that as well. One drawback is that that are so heavy it is difficult to find the will to experiment with room position as much as I would have liked.
I think opera can be challenging in domestic circumstances - e.g. listening to Wagner's ring cycle, it is stretching credibility to have a large orchestra + 8 buxom and very loud Valkyries be in a smallish room! (But can still sound very nice - e.g. Klemperer's ~ 1970 recording of Die Zauberflote sounds marvellous.)
*When I say "absent" I mean subjectively not obvious. Using REW software and measurement, the presence of very large room-modes was obvious. Its amazing how tolerant the ear is!
Allaboutmusic
pfm Member
interesting upgrade path. Curious if you compared the big harbeths to any of the big B&Ws which I understand are popular with classical music fans ? I have shl5+ but fancy a pair of 803s as a potential next speaker.
Chris81
pfm Member
Why do you think it is a 3 way design? The super tweeter drops in @ 13kHz.
The bass with the SHL5 is slightly emphasized as it is with the M40.1. The SHL5plus und M40.2 is earlier falling in the bass in comparison.
I'm afraid not.
I thought a 2.5 way is where there are 3 drive units, usually two bass or (bass-mid) units + a tweeter, and where both bass units are used for the lower bass but only one for the mid-range. AFAIK the HL5 has 3 units covering three distinct ranges (obviously with some overlap as the crossover is never a brick-wall)?
I stand to be corrected though - if the tweeter attempts to cover the full range of the super-tweeter it could be argued its a 2.5 way design. (Either way, its not a big deal to call it a 3-way I think!)
tuga
Legal Alien
A 2.5-way speaker is a a variation of a 2-way 3-driver speaker in which the midwoofer which covers the bass and midrange is supported by a woofer covering the bass.
To the best of my knowledge the SHL5 did not have a slightly emphasized bass but a slightly recessed upper midrange (or presence).
tuga
Legal Alien
Harbeth seems to call them 3 way too, I don't get why, but it is what it is. IMO it is a 2,5 way but who am I to discuss this with the designer who must know it better.
The SHL5 (S for super-tweeter) was a move away from the original 2-way HL designed by Dudley Harwood and Shaw's updated Radial™ HL5, and closer to the Spendor BC1 design (which was also a 2-way in early prototype form) and the BBC LS3/6 which copied it.
A super-tweeter was later added to the BC1 mainly to avoid tax, as designer Spencer Hughes describes below:
"Some months later BC1s were fitted with an amplifier mounted in the back panel and the 4001G super tweeter added. This addition was for purchase tax reasons, but it did have two extra gains. Firstly, it improved the overall dispersion characteristics, secondly, from the broadcasting angle, it made any 625-line breakthrough to be more easily detected."
It is interesting and rather disappointing that modern versions of the BC1 & LS3/6 such by Graham, Harbeth or Stirling have not made the best use of the super-tweeter to make the off-axis response smoother. Why not make them 2-way with a waveguided tweeter (and simpler/cheaper crossover) to improve off-axis response?
In the SHL5+ case, using a super-tweeter may have the benefit of raising the nasty break-up of the metal dome further away from the audio range (or audibility).
This should not be a problem with any speaker in the modern era. Eq boxes, stand alone or part of DRC, are freely available.
At this price level your dealer should be willing to offer a home demo. If can manage to have both sets of speakers in your home at the same time that would be ideal. Pick whichever one suits you best. It’s your money…..
Edit: In this price range you might also want to listen to more ‘modern’ options, e.g. KEF, Revel, Magico, or actives from D&D, ATC, Kii, Neumann, Genelec, et al.
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Chris81
pfm Member
You need to understand, that not everybody is into such stuff and I can only speak for myself but I like Harbeth, Graham and Spendor and wouldn't buy any KEF, Revel, Magico, or actives from D&D, ATC, Kii, Neumann, Genelec, etc.
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Well I couldn’t possibly know that, so can only make suggestions. The OP must decide for himself. In any case OP has not posted on this thread for a couple of days, so perhaps this thread has run its course.
Harbeth seems to call them 3 way too, I don't get why, but it is what it is. IMO it is a 2,5 way but who am I to discuss this with the designer who must know it better.
Not looking to stir up something that's been settled, simply adding an observation which may be of interest.
A few years ago I was in one of the Harbeth rooms at the Bristol show and overheard Alan Shaw answering a question as to whether the SHL5+ 40th anniversary being demo’d was a three-way speaker, and he answered something like ‘well, two-way with a super tweeter’. I know that Harbeth specs on the website and even a Harbeth leaflet I have dating back to 2016 describe the SHL5+ as a three-way system, and no doubt it can be legitimately described as such or it wouldn't be, but that's what I heard!
To me it’s understandable, without going into or appreciating the technicalities, that many, including myself, would have tended to think only a speaker system consisting of tweeter/mid/bass was three-way, per the M40. I imagine marketing comes into this?!
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
It's simple - if there's a low-pass filter on the tweeter, then the SHL5 is a 3-way. The definition of an n-way speaker is not dependent upon a specific range of bandwidths for the number of drivers.
If there's no low-pass on the tweeter, it's a 2.5-way.
I have a pair of SHL5+, I suppose I should pull off the back, trace out the crossover, and draw a schematic. I'll get around to it someday.
Ah, so that was a typo, now corrected, I see. I did wonder if you meant to write wouldn’t.
My preference would be different. Last year I was in the market for a pair of speakers and got Revels.
what was the last piece of hifi you bought
what was the last piece of hifi you bought