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hackernap advice thread

Alan why butcher the NCC200 just sell the boards and build the hackernaps, there are a few other tweaks on them as well that you will miss out on.
I can tell you they are a good step up on the already good NCC's expect a more powerful dynamic and detailed sound that’s what I got.
Geoff
Geoff Thanks for that advice but I have already built a pair of Hackernap boards fully built up, others have said that they sound better that the NCC 200 but I’m not sure that you can claim that without comparing like for like. You really should only compare a Hackernap with a Voyager amp as a front end supply dramatically improves the NCC200 as well
So I have some spare hackernap boards and 2 will be used for a front end supply duties only and I may also fit the 2 Caps on the power rails close to the output Tranies as well.
I am a big fan of the NCC200 board, it is simplistic and very well laid out IMO and I think in a like for like trial there would be nothing in it and would come down to choice of components, the hackernap board has the regs stuck right in the middle of the board and the signal path runs right through them so Im not sure but that could be disadvantage, anyway Ill see when I get round to it:)

Alan
 
Gentlemen,

May be a dumb question but I need to ask:
If the FrontEnd supply is so important but with lower and steady consumption why we don't use more complex regulators like the ones designed from Andy, Teddy, Russ, etc.
I suppose they can be tuned or re-designed to give higher output voltages or am I missing something?
Thanks,
Ivo

Another good question and a slightly tricky one to answer.

Regulators can do two things, produce an output that doesn't vary as much when the input voltage varies (Line Regulation) and produce an output that doesn't vary as much when the the thing they are driving has varying current demands (Load Regulation).

We started out in the basic NAP circuit with the power rails of both the front end and the output stage using the same noisy high current supply and from the NCC onwards have been separating and improving the front end supply. We started out with very limited line and load regulation. The front end has an almost constant current draw and therefore needs less load regulation than the power stage with its large variations in current draw.

The first change was a resistor capacitor filter as per NCC which gave increased line regulation and depending upon how good the cap, increased load regulation. The next logical step was a separate transformer and cap board for the front end which further improved line regulation.

The HackerNap has introduced a cap multiplier which gives amplified line regulation and a little bit of load regulation defined by the Vbe characteristics of the transistor used. The load regulation comes about because there is a feedback in an emitter (or source) follower, it delivers more current when the output voltage drops relative to the base (or gate). The transistor in the Cap multiplier has a high bandwidth (the Ft of the device used - into the 10s of MHz) and as it is just a single transistor stage it is unlikely to go unstable. The bandwidth is important as there are a great number of high frequency components flying around a power amp after all that rectification.

Now a Teddyreg is a version of the cap multiplier with an improved follower output stage and a voltage reference at its base. It doesn't have any more overall feedback and retains a highish bandwidth so it may well be the equal of or better than the cap multiplier. It might be worth a try though its a lot more complex than the cap multiplier with a lot more to go wrong.

I do however doubt there is any benefit from using high feedback regulators for the front end, such as the Superregs. I would argue that their high feedback and limited bandwidth makes them both less good at filtering out the highest frequency components from the raw DC supply and less good at regulating these same high frequency changes to the load. They are also even more complex still than the Teddyreg.

There is one thing that needs a little more consideration though. The positive rail of the NAP and NCC circuits front end does have small variations in current demand (the negative does not). These small variations increase with frequency as the open loop gain of the NAP circuit decreases. There might be some benefit in having better load regulation here on the positive rail, perhaps a simple low feedback high bandwidth regulator after the cap multiplier would provide an audible increase in load regualtion to deal with these current demand changes.

I'm not sure where the law of diminishing returns cuts in on this improvement process. It may well turn out to be more effective to bridge two HackerNAP circuits and thereby clean up the earth line, just as Naim did with their NAP500.

John
 
The positive rail of the NAP and NCC circuits front end does have small variations in current demand (the negative does not). These small variations increase with frequency as the open loop gain of the NAP circuit decreases. There might be some benefit in having better load regulation here on the positive rail, perhaps a simple low feedback high bandwidth regulator after the cap multiplier would provide an audible increase in load regualtion to deal with these current demand changes.
Simply augmenting the cap multiplier can work very well, like driving the pass transistor base with a zener fed by a current-source (at several mA). It's still passive, so no risk of it interacting with the amplification it feeds; it's still very quiet, becasue you have enough current run through the zener (and you can leave the cap in parallel too); and the result has considerably lower and more-constant dynamic impedance at low/audio frequencies (because the transistor base 'sees' a rather low impedance feed.) Simple and effective enough for many things IME :)
 
Simply augmenting the cap multiplier can work very well, like driving the pass transistor base with a zener fed by a current-source (at several mA). It's still passive, so no risk of it interacting with the amplification it feeds; it's still very quiet, becasue you have enough current run through the zener (and you can leave the cap in parallel too); and the result has considerably lower and more-constant dynamic impedance at low/audio frequencies (because the transistor base 'sees' a rather low impedance feed.) Simple and effective enough for many things IME :)

That's exactly what was done on the Nytech preamps Martin and it is easily implemented with the addition of a zener and constant current diode. In the Nytech preamps they had a nicely constructed discrete regulator followed by a zener cap multiplier like this for each stage.

Funnily enough last evening I was thinking (again)of adding a totally separate voltage feed (trafo, caps etc) just to supply the gate reference voltage of the cap multipliers. I like the idea of removing any chance of this reference voltage being influenced by load currents. That's a lot of trouble to go to for perhaps diminishing returns though.

John
 
Quite. Back-of-envelope suggests a 'one vbe' transistor CCS, biased by two diodes and using maybe a 100ohm resistor- pretty basic as such things go - has an output impedance c.50Kohm when the a couple of 22v zeners in series running at 5-6mA will be around the 50ohm mark. So there's roughly 80dB of PSRR rejection possible for bobbins - about the same as an LM317, but potentially rather quieter, and with a resistive output characteristic (which is nice) A bit of RC decopling ahead of the whole - rather than a more elaborate CCS - only improves things over a wide frequency range from there. Simple is good!
 
John and Martin, thanks for your inputs - if you can provide a kind of schematics of your "basic" and "simple" ideas and how and where to implement them in HNap will be much appreciated, please!

John, back to your chokes experiments, please - why you put the choke before the first cap but not after to form C-L-C? Have you try to use even two chokes, C-L-C-L-C instead C-R-C-R-C - I suppose you will need even higher FE transformer voltages?
Thanks!
 
Funny, I've been drawing some front end ideas for my ebay ncc amp and concluded that CRCRC with a simple zener and cap based emitter follower reg would probably be fine.

I like the CRCRC network where current draw is close to constant.

It's nice to hear your discussion.

Mike
 
John and Martin, thanks for your inputs - if you can provide a kind of schematics of your "basic" and "simple" ideas and how and where to implement them in HNap will be much appreciated, please!

John, back to your chokes experiments, please - why you put the choke before the first cap but not after to form C-L-C? Have you try to use even two chokes, C-L-C-L-C instead C-R-C-R-C - I suppose you will need even higher FE transformer voltages?
Thanks!

That's exactly what I am doing next Ivo - I'm putting in a second choke to make LCLC. I'm winding my own chokes on some spare transformer cores rather than order some just yet. I've done LCLCLC on my B4 supply and got a significant sonic improvement from the second L which was about 0.8H. I just had a 20mH one for the third L and this wasn't so significant.

The first choke is dominant as it completely changes the way the rectifier charges the circuit so I have done that first.

The drawings will come just as soon as I've got near to the best values. I realise this makes it more intelligable to all. Values do depend on the trafo voltages and caps you are using so I'll base it all on 40-0-40 trafos and 1000uF caps to start with.

John
 
OK chaps, I've now added the front end power supply components to the board & tested as per the hackerNAP Manual. From an input voltage of 57.7V I get 49.5V from the C11 pad & 50.1V from the C9 pad & a similar variation from the other board. Is this OK please?
 
Got a new MJE15031G today very kindly donated to my cause from Pete.
Many Thanks

It now installed and no smoke which is good. Unfortunately going through the setup process again, points A and B are now measuring 0.2V, so obviously the FE is still not right. - Outputs are at 49.2/49.3V.

Does such a low V indicate anything obvious?



Other amp board is doing fine
(except perhaps that OP is 0.9v higher than FE).
 
Lucas
Did you have the Bias trimpot set to the midway position the first time you fired it up?
The trimpot may have gone as well
You should get front end votage between R7 and ground and R15 and ground if not then the front end supply is not working

Alan
 
Got it working for a second sec, measured 48.5 at AB, then not working again. Close to the problem at least.
I have changed the trim pot and it was at min. FE psu is fine also.

bloody weird
 
OK chaps, I've now added the front end power supply components to the board & tested as per the hackerNAP Manual. From an input voltage of 57.7V I get 49.5V from the C11 pad & 50.1V from the C9 pad & a similar variation from the other board. Is this OK please?

Yes, no problem. Odd fraction of a volt of assymetry is neither here no there.
 
Lucas could be a cold soldered joint somewhere?
Did you actually find the fault from the first time as It may do the same thing again if you didnt:eek:

Alan
 
TR8 died which was resulting in R19 just burning up. Whether that was a result of something else? well I hope not.

Seems to be ok now from a power supply POV, keep testing, turning off testing etc..
Measuring 48.5ish FE points A/B.

Just put some music through it from my phone into crappy old car speaker.
Seems very distorted, but maybe that is the bias setting
 
OK chaps, I've now added the front end power supply components to the board & tested as per the hackerNAP Manual. From an input voltage of 57.7V I get 49.5V from the C11 pad & 50.1V from the C9 pad & a similar variation from the other board. Is this OK please?

Absolutely fine, that's about the right difference in voltage.

Having said that, the voltages are, I think, just a tad lower than is optimal. I'd be tempted at this stage to swap out the 1M resistors in the VBE for 2M. This will bring the output voltage up into the low 50s, which will be just a smidge higher than the output stage voltage - and that's what we want.

But it's no biggie and those voltage will work just fine. They're what I'm using just now.
 


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