TheFlash
Reiki Audio
And they might counter... why don't people hear the differences our switches make and then try to work out how they make it (if that's important to them) rather than letting theory get in the way of practice?
Gustard Network Switch... Thoughts?
- Thread starter Greyandy
- Start date
John Phillips
pfm Member
My thoughts on audiophile network switches are that it's worthwhile first of all being clear with yourself about what you want from your version of the hobby.
If your hobby works for example through enjoying the process of trying out all sorts of things, seeing how they work for you and deciding whether or not you like the result, then by all means go for it if the price is comfortable and try it out.
If your hobby works like mine then system changes, additions etc. are made to improve identifiable issues. Ones that interfere with my enjoyment of music. AFAICS audiophile network switches' only advertised purpose in this context is to solve certain downstream technical problems. Even if it were plausible that they could do what I think they claim, I do not perceive any of the issues I have seen in the marketing material. That's what my ears tell me.
It's a hobby, so surely it's right to do what pleases and not do what doesn't please. I don't evangelize my way or tell others what to do, but installing an audiophile network switch is not for me. That includes the issue that in my current network it's 5 GHz WiFi which links my network to the network bridge and its USB DAC. There's no place to install it where it might do what I think it claims to do, anyway.
If your hobby works for example through enjoying the process of trying out all sorts of things, seeing how they work for you and deciding whether or not you like the result, then by all means go for it if the price is comfortable and try it out.
If your hobby works like mine then system changes, additions etc. are made to improve identifiable issues. Ones that interfere with my enjoyment of music. AFAICS audiophile network switches' only advertised purpose in this context is to solve certain downstream technical problems. Even if it were plausible that they could do what I think they claim, I do not perceive any of the issues I have seen in the marketing material. That's what my ears tell me.
It's a hobby, so surely it's right to do what pleases and not do what doesn't please. I don't evangelize my way or tell others what to do, but installing an audiophile network switch is not for me. That includes the issue that in my current network it's 5 GHz WiFi which links my network to the network bridge and its USB DAC. There's no place to install it where it might do what I think it claims to do, anyway.
I have as I stated in that long thread many months ago, I m fortunate to have access to many like Netgear, Cisco, Melanox, Dell (Force10) yada yada yada. Seriously, you don’t know what I’ve tried or my background so stop trying to be smart.
Which was another point put to Mr smarty pants in that other thread from the end of 2022, it is possible with something like PiCore Player to set the buffer size such that the whole of the track can be buffered and played back with the network cable removed, it was suggested he try it and report back…..
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
Yes indeed the sound still plays from the buffer and I use that fact to compare network switches so I can select a switch which means that the sound is the same whether the Ethernet is connected or disconnected.
When I did that I sold my EtherRegen and bought a PhoenixNET. I could hear a sound difference with one but not the other.
Switches do still matter because noise getting in from the network can still pollute the streamer circuits even though the music is being played from its buffer. By the way there is a difference in sound when the buffer can only take part if a track compared to a whole track because the buffer is constantly being topped up and that causes issues. Innuos have publicly commented on this because their streamers can run Roon and they were saying that the way Roon is implemented meant that they couldn’t get it to load whole tracks to the buffer and this affected the sound. I haven’t used the latest Roon but also it certainly used to be the case that if one pulled the ethernet plug then Roon stopped instantly even when playing locally stored ripped music.
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TheFlash
Reiki Audio
Er, not exactly. A disconnected cable can't transfer any noise of course but I'm not sure what this proves.
tuga
Legal Alien
If after 5 seconds you get silence then I think it means the exact opposite, that cables are absolutely necessary if you wish to play music.
Let it go.... I have.
I have decades of experience with TCP/IP application development (Unix/Linux) in mission critical systems level applications and I used to reply to these types of threads but there is no point.
If someone wants to believe, for example, that we need to reclock a packetized protocol whose signal travels a few metres inside their home then so be it (where in real world, packet [frame] #1234 can travel 1000's of km and take a different route to #1235 and in fact arrive at the end point after #1235 has been received and yet its all reassembled in order)
I can send 10's of terabytes of data from an east coast datacenter to a west coast data center and get essentially zero retries.
Peter
How do you think the data gets in there in the first place?
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Have you? You're here, after all.
It's not a question of data integrity, for which your observation is absolutely on point, obviously. It's a question of noise 'piggy-backing' on the network and finding its way (probably via the earth) into the audio side of things. When the noise isn't relevant, so pure data transfer, then sure, your experience is valid, but an audio scenario is different.
This is interesting because it's a perfectly reasonable position. However, sometimes it has taken me experiencing a system where the issue is dealt with, to perceive the effect of the issue at all. To misapply the Sainted Joni: "You don't know what you've got, till it's gone". There are phenomena which do not appear to be consciously, perceptibly audible, yet something changes for the better when they are dealt with. This sort of network noise has been in my experience, exactly that sort of phenomenon.
TheFlash
Reiki Audio
I agree. Ethernet protocols are robust as has been proven over decades. No-one should be claiming that there is anything special about digital data for audio which differentiates it from digital data for any other application. This is why I get grumpy when some audio-oriented manufacturers talk about jitter in the ethernet space as if it’s as important as jitter in the bitstream (eg DAC) space. And even grumpier when they make the case for higher accuracy clock “upgrades” to address the non-issue.
The case for audiophile switches can and should only be made in relation to RFI noise. It’s an analogue thing where shielding etc play a critical role and the position of the switch just before the streamer also does.
John Phillips
pfm Member
That is true about perception. I can point to evolution in the things I notice. Most don't make a difference to me but the occasional one has become annoying. Nothing new, though, since I last made the relevant changes six years ago.
However, until I do notice, there is still no problem to solve. And it isn't part of my version of the hobby to go actively looking for things that annoy me. I won't be persuaded to change that.
As for noise in particular, I find that modern classical recordings can have extraordinarily noise-free backgrounds via my current kit compared to older recordings. That doesn't trump the quality of the performance, though. Given what I don't hear on superb modern digital audio sources, I suppose I could ask "what network noise is this?"
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
Network noise is often discussed in terms of being high frequency out of audio band noise that is inaudible in itself but which can modulate the audio signal (by way of noise floor modulation) and it is therefore only noticeable when music is playing. So your noise free background is not an indicator of lack of network noise.
Just on the matter of galvanic isolation which others have mentioned as blocking noise, I notice that Rob Watts has posted elsewhere on this saying, “galvanic isolation is not perfect as there is a capacitance across the isolation. This capacitance means that at GHz frequencies you have no isolation”. On the audible effects of the noise floor modulation RW says, “That's exactly what noise floor modulation does - it sharpens things up, giving an etched quality and making it sound brighter. But instrument separation and more importantly focus is degraded.” This was in answer to someone saying he thought the sound was better with a certain configuration and that he didn’t believe this was due to noise but RW disagreed.
John Phillips
pfm Member
Yes, I know. I did spend 28 working years in an electronics research lab and there was a period when I worked on digital audio including DACs and ADCs. My experience does tell me that Rob Watts is very good technically and he has implementation technology available today I would have killed for back then. But he is also good at marketing.
The bottom line is still that I perceive no problem that needs fixing. Sorry for the emphasis but the importance of that does not seem to have been appreciated.
I would be pleased to understand why you seem to be trying to persuade or even tell me that my perception is wrong.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I'm not trying to tell you that, and I'm not sure others are either, but to address the point: we are all different, I have friends who are more acutely sensitive to some aspects than I am, and some things matter more to me than to them. So I completely accept the validity of your own position, for your own cirucmstances, but it needs to be recognised that even though something may not be a 'problem' for you, it may be for somebody else.
And from my own experience, once having had a problem brought to my attention, I do find I enjoy my music more without that problem present, even if I am still not consciously aware of the problem. I think Rob Watts' comment is spot on here, addressing noise is very much apparent in the areas of focus, solidity and instrumental separation. The follow-on from that is that things like phrasing improve, which enhances the level of emotional communication in the music.
tuga
Legal Alien
Nothing wrong with one's perception.
But some issues might not be perceived unless one's been exposed to the difference with and without (e.g. through training) or unless the system is transparent enough to exposed those issues.
gez
pfm Member
I think you missed the intended sarcasm in my post.
