Grammar Schools?

[Seanm]

Why is the question not about the overall outcome for the cohort in the presence of selection?

Is it not in the national interest to mine all of society for the brightest and exploit them maximally?


Paul

It would certainly be in the interest of certain sections of what we might call (since I know you're comfortable with the term) "the elite," for reasons discussed on the other grammar school thread. But it's increasingly difficult to identify those interests with something like the "national interest." I really don't know how that would be defined these days.

While it's not the most pressing issue raised by all this, it's also worth bearing in mind that it's not all roses for the grammar school kids either. Grammar schools can be stultifying places. No necessary reason that they should be, but given a student body of proven academic ability and - lets face it - compliance, the temptation must be translate that in the most straightforward way possible into the exam results by which a school's "competitiveness" is measured. IMO creative teaching and learning is more likely to flourish where needs and abilities are more mixed.

That's pure supposition, based only on my own dismal grammar school days and what I hear from friends teaching in London comprehensives. What I feel more sure of, though, is that it maims a child to tell her at 11 that she is better than her peers. At the level of "national interest," it feeds into the idea that professionals eventually have of themselves, and of their fellow citizens. For the fruits of that, see the recent threads on Brexit and democracy, where many expressed the view that most people are just too thick to understand or take part in political decision-making.

 

[ks.234]

Grammar Streaming; that would be too sensible. We don't care how bright or sensitive you are, in the interests of fairness and equality you have to sit in lessons dictated by Gripper Stebson's behaviour.

Get rid of private schools, get rid of different types of schools, get rid of selection altogether, and make sure that everyone, including MPs, have to send their kids to the Gripper Stebson Academy. Creating an education system that works for every one would become number one political priority over night!

 

[cooky1257]

Get rid of private schools, get rid of different types of schools, get rid of selection altogether, and make sure that everyone, including MPs, have to send their kids to the Gripper Stebson Academy. Creating an education system that works for every one would become number one political priority over night!

But what you naively propose is a system that works for no one.

 

[ks.234]

But what you naively propose is a system that works for no one.

If we can't educate our kids together, how will they ever live together?

 

[ks.234]

But what you naively propose is a system that works for no one.

I also think that an education system that works for everyone is just as important as an NHS that works for everyone. If you support the principle of a Health Service fit for everyone, why not an education system?

 

[Philim]

I also think that an education system that works for everyone is just as important as an NHS that works for everyone. If you support the principle of a Health Service fit for everyone, why not an education system?

Because when it comes to health we are all equal. When it comes to education and society we are not. Some are clevererer than others. Accepting average for our future is insane.

 

[jackbarron]

I also think that an education system that works for everyone is just as important as an NHS that works for everyone. If you support the principle of a Health Service fit for everyone, why not an education system?

Exactly. The education system is ruined for the majority by factors of wealth, class, religion and snobbery, something that the Tories and unfortunately a lot the PLP support.

Jack

 

[Seanm]

Because when it comes to health we are all equal. When it comes to education and society we are not. Some are clevererer than others. Accepting average for our future is insane.

There is no reason, apart from prejudice, to say that people are equal in one respect and unequal in another.

 

[cooky1257]

I also think that an education system that works for everyone is just as important as an NHS that works for everyone. If you support the principle of a Health Service fit for everyone, why not an education system?

I dont want to be treated by an average doctor.

 

[Philim]

There is no reason, apart from prejudice, to say that they are equal in one respect and unequal in another.

The only prejudice I can see is coming from those obsessed with class like yourself. The barriers between so called working class and middle are virtually non existent and only exist in a bitter few.

 

[Seanm]

I dont want to be treated by an average doctor.

But you're happy for others to be treated by them? Who?

Raise the average and it isn't an issue.

 

[ks.234]

I dont want to be treated by an average doctor.

Maths is not my subject, but I'd have thought the statistically, the chances are that, like it or not, you will, indeed, be treated by an 'average' doctor.

And I'd have thought that the chances of raising the standard of that 'average' would be increase by raising the attainment of all.

I'd also like to say that every doctor who has treated me has been exemplary. I have no idea if they were rated average or otherwise, but surely the point is that they provided me with what I needed irrespective of a selection criteria.

 

[cooky1257]

But your happy for others to be treated by them? Who?

Raise the average and it isn't an issue.

What? I'm of the opinion that Medical schools are centres of excellence are you suggesting they should lower their entrance standards and become non selective?

 

[droodzilla]

The only prejudice I can see is coming from those obsessed with class like yourself. The barriers between so called working class and middle are virtually non existent and only exist in a bitter few.

A beautifully self-deconstructing post.

 

[ks.234]

Well, it's been a fun afternoon guys, listening to music and enjoying a frank exchange of views, but I must go now and start planning for Monday's lessons.

However, all these posts have affected me. Should go in on Monday and announce that we're having a test and the top 15% will be taken by the nice Miss Frobisher in the west wing, while the unselected will be taught by the miserable old git that is me in the hut on the field?

Or shall I do the same test and sit the 15% in the corner and leave then unattended while I spend all my time with 'special needs kids at the bottom of the ability range'?

Or perhaps I'll just do what I normally and go in and do my poor best to treat them all as human beings of equal value.

 

[Seanm]

What? I'm of the opinion that Medical schools are centres of excellence are you suggesting they should lower their entrance standards and become non selective?

Ah, I get you. But it seems to me to be a different issue.

 

[Paul R]

A 'grammar style education' is a selective education teaching pupils selected from the top of the ability range. Selective education cannot be applied to 'schools that aren't selective' because they're not selective, Selective means teaching the very top of the ability range, Non selective means teaching everyone else. The 'whole class' teaching style favoured by many Grammar schools simply would not work in, for example, a challenging inner city school and many of the teachers in a grammar school would not last very long in such a school.

That makes no sense.

Paul

 

[ks.234]

That makes no sense.

Paul

I rather think its a statement of the bleedin' obvious

 

[cooky1257]

Well, it's been a fun afternoon guys, listening to music and enjoying a frank exchange of views, but I must go now and start planning for Monday's lessons.

Nowt to it;

“Now, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!”

 

[ks.234]

Nowt to it;

“Now, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!”

I don't teach facts Cocky, never have done, never will.

I teach looking, learning, reflection, investigating, developing, refining and don't be a twat.