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General Election 2024

SteveG said:
Are you suggesting that someone other than Labour or the Tories are going to form the next government? Unless you are, then by saying you think Labour will be worse then surely you're then just saying that you want a Tory government. That's certainly how you've sounded to me - it seems you hate Labour so much now that you'd prefer anyone except them in power.

For me the best "worst" option is for Labour to form a minority government and have them controlled to some extent by having to gain consensus from other parties on a case by case basis (although no doubt the LibDem's would do a deal if there is another sniff of ministerial cars and pensions).
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Steve, how do you think you could achieve your preferred outcome without a huge proportion of people voting tactically to bring it about (ie) not voting for Tories or Labour but for which ever alternative will keep both of these Genocide enablers from taking that seat.
 
Ward said:
Steve, how do you think you could achieve your preferred outcome without a huge proportion of people voting tactically to bring it about (ie) not voting for Tories or Labour but for which ever alternative will keep both of these Genocide enablers from taking that seat.
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It'll be interesting to see how the polling is to see if tactical voting is needed or if the concerns the electorate have about a possible Labour government might stop them getting an outright majority anyway.

Normally I'd not expect them to get much here in Scotland but a combination of concerns about the Tories and the current issues with the SNP likely means that Labour will get quite a few seats up here.
 
The important point is voting Labour where necessary with absolutely no illusions. That means not helping to paint any illusions for anybody else!

That is the only hope of being able to be an a position to put up any sort of argument when Labour fails to deliver on the expectations that people inevitably have or cling on to or whatever it might be. People of my age for whom Blair was their first Labour PM in adulthood to today's under 30s who will feel the same sense of let down that my friends experienced when Blair went off to war with the Yanks. Many of those people gave up on politics for good, albeit some were revived by Corbyn for a while. Without being levelheaded from gaining a true understanding of what Starmer is really about people will swing from total euphoria on election night to abject pessimism and demoralisation down the line, which is a recipe that the far right will seek to proper from - guaranteed. What kind of credible argument will Labour be able to make against the Le Pen/Meloni axis in Europe - none!
 
ks.234 said:
No. I’m just not buying into the lesser evil/there is no alternative/there is no money/best worst argument that has been going on for decades with the same result.

Carrying on doing what we have been doing and expecting a different result is not an argument, it’s an article of faith
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So what would you like to see happen at the election then? Given you clearly don't want a Labour government.
 
There is zero danger of anyone except *Labour* forming the next government. Even if the Tories won on some million to one fluke I don’t think they’d manage to form a government.

It’s a good opportunity to put the “So you want a Tory government do you!” stuff to one side for a moment and consider what you want to achieve with your vote. Given that it will have no impact on the outcome of the election, what message do you want to send to your MP? What might the longer term consequences be of voting for a party that actually represents your values and interests? Strategic rather than tactical voting in other words.
 
Seanm said:
There is zero danger of anyone except *Labour* forming the next government. Even if the Tories won on some million to one fluke I don’t think they’d manage to form a government.

It’s a good opportunity to put the “So you want a Tory government do you!” stuff to one side for a moment and consider what you want to achieve with your vote. Given that it will have no impact on the outcome of the election, what message do you want to send to your MP? What might the longer term consequences be of voting for a party that actually represents your values and interests? Strategic rather than tactical voting in other words.
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Maybe some sort of open letter to the incoming Labour government? Something along the lines of:

"We voted you in for change, which you campaigned on. We're not yet convinced you'll deliver it, but we're giving you a chance to prove it. We've just told you, convincingly, that we don't want you to continue with the previous administration's lines and approaches. So you've got one chance, don't f**k it up.

First thing, get rid of all that 'ironclad' bollocks. Second thing, don't borrow under PFI on the sort of long term rates that would make a credit card company blush, when you can borrow from the markets for less than we can. But most of all understand clearly that for many of us, this country is broken, and we've given you a chance to fix it.

Start now."
 
Angela Rayner is...

Innocent. At least as far as the police are concerned.

Expect a poll bounce for Labour. Not as if they need it, though.

GOrJLPBXkAETMrf
 
SteveG said:
So what would you like to see happen at the election then? Given you clearly don't want a Labour government.
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What would I like to see happen is a long way off.

What I can see happening after this election, because of the best worst argument, is the problem of increasing inequality, increasing fascism, increasing economic crises, further erosions of democracy, more hand wringing support of genocide all getting worse.

What a thing to vote for?

What a thing to give a further mandate to?
 
Seanm said:
There is zero danger of anyone except *Labour* forming the next government. Even if the Tories won on some million to one fluke I don’t think they’d manage to form a government.

It’s a good opportunity to put the “So you want a Tory government do you!” stuff to one side for a moment and consider what you want to achieve with your vote. Given that it will have no impact on the outcome of the election, what message do you want to send to your MP? What might the longer term consequences be of voting for a party that actually represents your values and interests? Strategic rather than tactical voting in other words.
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I'm an intellectual minnow compared with many of our more politically aware members and see things in pretty simple terms.

The planet is on fire so I vote Green. It's as simple as that.

I wish more people would do the same but that's up to them.
 
As part of an abstract thought experiment I could get behind the idea that a Labour government would always be preferable to a Tory administration. But look at what these people are actually saying they will do, and on whose behalf they intend to govern.

They talk of ‘difficult choices‘ when they have no difficulty whatsoever retaining the two child benefit cap, outsourcing NHS services to their rich chums in the private sector, or overseeing the sale of weapons components to Israel. They sure as hell ain’t agonising over increasing the top rates of tax, or clamping down on tax avoidance and ensuring Amazon coughs up its fair share, or enacting the ICJ’s legal rulings on Israel. That really would present them with huge difficulties.

The entire shadow cabinet is comprised of these people. It’s them who will be pulling the strings, not principled socialists like Zara Sultana or Richard Burgon. It’s not that they’re nasty, corrupt individuals (or not to begin with at least). It’s that their horizons have been so lowered and their imaginations are so bereft of originality and optimism that they genuinely believe Starmer’s warmed over Blairism is the only possible ‘alternative’ and everything else is naive, idealistic, impractical and unelectable.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Maybe some sort of open letter to the incoming Labour government? Something along the lines of:

"We voted you in for change, which you campaigned on. We're not yet convinced you'll deliver it, but we're giving you a chance to prove it. We've just told you, convincingly, that we don't want you to continue with the previous administration's lines and approaches. So you've got one chance, don't f**k it up.

First thing, get rid of all that 'ironclad' bollocks. Second thing, don't borrow under PFI on the sort of long term rates that would make a credit card company blush, when you can borrow from the markets for less than we can. But most of all understand clearly that for many of us, this country is broken, and we've given you a chance to fix it.

Start now."
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But any campaign message coming out of Labour is contingent on Rachael Reeves one-handed iron grip on the public purse* and “growth”. We will get lots of excuses about “taxpayers money” but no progress for precisely that same reasons we have progressively gone backwards for decades.

Labour cannot fix what is broken about our country without a proper diagnosis of what has gone wrong and the right tools.

This country desperately needs a different toolkit


*With the other hand she is shovelling public money into a bags for private pockets.
 
kensalriser said:
Rees-Mogg is still my number one Portillo wish. Sunak will be gone during the term of the parliament anyway, whatever he says now.
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There are going to be some great falls on the night, even if so many of the worst offenders have taken the cowards way out already. I’m dying to see their faces, those arrogant one term, red wall grunters, provided they don’t run out the fire exit straight after the count like that previous twat. I’m getting plenty of snacks in and there’s a bottle of champagne in the fridge already. Might need two.

Also might go out the front door and bang pots together when the big ones take the drop. Just to thank them for their unstinting service.
 
Spraggons Den said:
It wouldn't be my definition either - that sounds more like social democracy to me.

Socialism is usually defined by social ownership of the means of production as opposed to private ownership. Which to your average voter living in the era of global capitalism sounds quite archaic.
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Well, yes, when you put it in archaic (and abstract) language, it sounds... archaic, and abstract.

If you ask voters whether they want (e.g.) our armed forces to be owned by private shareholders and operated on a for-profit basis, you're likely to get a different reaction.
 
paulfromcamden said:
I'm an intellectual minnow compared with many of our more politically aware members and see things in pretty simple terms.

The planet is on fire so I vote Green. It's as simple as that.

I wish more people would do the same but that's up to them.
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Agreed. It is past time to stop regarding economic growth (especially based on population growth) as the highest priority objective.
The sooner the world moves to the Japanese model of low growth and falling population the better.
It will also help the unemployment situation that AI will cause.
 
paulfromcamden said:
I'm an intellectual minnow compared with many of our more politically aware members and see things in pretty simple terms.

The planet is on fire so I vote Green. It's as simple as that.

I wish more people would do the same but that's up to them.
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I've come to the conclusion that this is the best way.

Vote for what you believe in.

Stop trying to second guess how other people might vote.

You might be pleasantly surprised.
 
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