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General Election 2024

I doubt anyone with half a brain, who is not a Tory zealot, needs to be told what has been wrong with the Tory Party for 60 years...

That said, people will vote for whomever for no well reasoned argument nor be amenable to intelligent debate. Brexit proved that beyond any doubt.
 
ks.234 said:
I’m about to eat with my better half, can I leave you with some info. Easy to read. Just read the first chapter

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This bit is interesting:

"But why is its (the Uk Government's) promise so good? Because it has the means to back it up. Having a bank is not enough. Having the means to tax changes everything. That, and the ability to pass law to make sure tax is paid. And then only in the currency the government chooses - the pound.

Tax is what gives the pound its value. If the government could just create money without limit it would soon be worthless. But it does not do that. Tax ensures that the government can control the amount of money in the economy."
 
Election spam race update:

Leaflet #3: George Galloway. The lightest at 11g and truly crap print quality. A fake newspaper presenting fake-news. Mostly scaremongering claiming the race is between Galloway and Reform, which makes no sense as Reform came last in the by-election and there wasn’t even a Labour candidate. He has however asked The Actual Pope to bless Rochdale, because of course he has. The utter prick.
 
tuga said:
This bit is interesting:

"But why is its (the Uk Government's) promise so good? Because it has the means to back it up. Having a bank is not enough. Having the means to tax changes everything. That, and the ability to pass law to make sure tax is paid. And then only in the currency the government chooses - the pound.

Tax is what gives the pound its value. If the government could just create money without limit it would soon be worthless. But it does not do that. Tax ensures that the government can control the amount of money in the economy."
Click to expand...
 
Tony L said:
Election spam race update:

Leaflet #3: George Galloway. The lightest at 11g and truly crap print quality. A fake newspaper presenting fake-news. Mostly scaremongering claiming the race is between Galloway and Reform, which makes no sense as Reform came last in the by-election and there wasn’t even a Labour candidate. He has however asked The Actual Pope to bless Rochdale, because of course he has. The utter prick.
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Down the road the Reform candidate for Heywood and North Middleton posted to my dad and all other residents in his block despite it now being in Blackley and South Middleton. I can't get too deep into this but for those that know Middleton the constituency borders now going right through the middle of the town centre so a fairly large town isn't really well represented no matter the outcome.
 
Not sure I agree with the argument made in the article, but this is a good way of describing the difference between winning an election and winning power:

“Any opportunity to remove the right from office, when it is always in power via its hegemonic sweep of ideology, institutions and forces, is necessary but insufficient. It’s winning on different terms that is essential to being in office and kickstarting the path to real power.”

www.theguardian.com

Just one term? There is a strategy that can get Keir Starmer to No 10 – and keep him there | Neal Lawson

The answer is for Labour to work with progressive parties. Voting patterns show just how effective that would be, says Compass director Neal Lawson
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Poor Neal, still dreaming that Labour will work with "other progressive parties" after they tried to stitch him up and expel him from the party because he liked a tweet.
 
ks.234 said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1804860268893114370
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It’s hugely disappointing that diplomacy, international treaties and agreements back us into a corner. Rogue nations, or factions within, now know they can exploit us to their own ends and we’ll turn a blind eye or worse as we have in this case.

I’d value a politician standing up to abhorrent behaviour and reneging on historic pacts. When other factors are no longer equal the basis for the pact is lost. If it ever was valid.

I may be wishing for more volatility but so be it. I’d at least have honesty.
 
ks.234 said:
No. You are doing the whataboutery. It is clear that your objectives habe nothing to do with any actual issues as demonstrated by your snark where you said that I was “in bed” with Farage and that now that I’m walking in his direction.

Neither is true.

I have already explained how my position is different to Farage. As I’ve said many times before, the West did not cause the war in Ukraine. What the West has done, again as I have said many times, is exploit the collapse of communism and in Ukraine pursued it’s own agenda, as evidenced by the seizure of assets and large scale privatisation, something Farage has not mentioned for obvious reasons. He supports asset seizure by multinationals and large scale privatisation

But this is a thread about the UK election, not Ukraine.

So while I do not agree that the West caused the Russian invasion, it is undeniable that you plan on giving a massive mandate to the ideology of Farage. Over the next few years Labour will moving even further right because of that mandate. It is you who are walking in Farage’s direction.

And supporting genocide.
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Could you just answer the question? I will put what The Frog wrote on the cause of the Ukraine war below - all you have to do is to state whether this is the same as your position or different and why:

Spraggons Den said:
“It was obvious to me that the ever-eastward expansion of Nato and the European Union was giving this man a reason … to say: ‘They’re coming for us again,’ and to go to war.”
Click to expand...

Spraggons Den said:
“We provoked this war. Of course it’s his fault, he’s used what we’ve done as an excuse.”
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Spraggons Den said:
“I am not and never have been an apologist or supporter of Putin. His invasion of Ukraine was immoral, outrageous and indefensible. As a champion of national sovereignty, I believe that Putin was entirely wrong to invade the sovereign nation of Ukraine.

“Nobody can fairly accuse me of being an appeaser. I have never sought to justify Putin’s invasion in any way and I’m not now..”
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Jubal said:
He’s clinging to hope. Bless. I still have some too although this thread is beating it out of me 🤣
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It’s not beating hope out of me. Small steps is the only hope of changing things, I don’t recall when I first said this, but it was years ago.

What I see from the Labour hard left is this. They complained about the Labour right undermining Corbyn, thus handing govt to the tories, ( and I agree with them ) yet they have been ( and still are ) doing exactly the same to Starmer. A clearer example of hypocrisy is hard to come by. They want a Tory govt if they can’t have a hard left Labour govt. I think it is vital the tories are removed this time, hopefully to be totally destroyed.

It’s 2024. There has been plenty of time for these people to have established a hard left party and to see what support they get from the electorate for their policies. They won’t get much because realistically there will not be a massive lurch to the left.
 
Spraggons Den said:
Could you just answer the question? I will put what The Frog wrote on the cause of the Ukraine war below - all you have to do is to state whether this is the same as your position or different and why:
Click to expand...
I have answered your question more than once. The truth is your question has backfired and exposed the intimacy you and your party share with Farage domestically and the hypocrisy abroad.
 
Brian said:
It’s not beating hope out of me. Small steps is the only hope of changing things, I don’t recall when I first said this, but it was years ago.

What I see from the Labour hard left is this. They complained about the Labour right undermining Corbyn, thus handing govt to the tories, ( and I agree with them ) yet they have been ( and still are ) doing exactly the same to Starmer. A clearer example of hypocrisy is hard to come by. They want a Tory govt if they can’t have a hard left Labour govt. I think it is vital the tories are removed this time, hopefully to be totally destroyed.

It’s 2024. There has been plenty of time for these people to have established a hard left party and to see what support they get from the electorate for their policies. They won’t get much because realistically there will not be a massive lurch to the left.
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The only steps that Labour represent are rightwards. More privatisation, more deregulation, more real terms cuts to public spending and more austerity.

Corbyn was not undermined by people on pfm, he was brought down by his own party. The only hypocrisy is from those who didn't support Corbyn then, but claim they want a move to the left now. (That is not a comment directed at you, your position has been admirably consistent)

I’ve not heard anyone calling for or wanting a hard left government, whatever that is, all I have called for is a move towards social democracy.
 
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