Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
He's actually ditched Russia's brief Democracy in favour of Gangster Authoritarianism.
Fascism V Fascism.
- Thread starter misterdog
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He's actually ditched Russia's brief Democracy in favour of Gangster Authoritarianism.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
I'd argue that it is 'unfettered' Capitalism as demanded by Neoliberalism, which is the main problem.
We were getting quite good at what might be termed 'social democracy'...broadly benefitting from capitalism, but curbing it's worst excesses.. until Thatcher launched the Neolib project here. It's been downhill since.
I see little hope until the left pushes back against Neolib and the only UK party I see moving that way is the Greens.
The bizarre thing is that Neoliberalism is everybody's bogeyman. The recently elected far right Italian mp was railing against it only this week. It seems to be used as a blanket term to define "everything I don't like" but I like and share your definition of "unbridled capitalism" .
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Because 99% or even 99.9% of the population don't benefit from it?
That's as may be, the point is that it's used as a catch all for "everything that's wrong" by all and sundry,
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
The deep irony of neoliberalism is that it was conceived by Frederick Hayek and others from the Mont Pelerin Society in the 40’s as a bulwark against Totalitarianism yet now tends towards it with increasingly authoritarian government backed by big money interests
A second deep irony is that it was also conceived as a corrective against Democracy which Hayek and Friedman saw as bringing in unwelcome interference from government in the running of a free market which according to their theories tended towards equilibrium. It’s internal mechanism has, according to other thinkers like Hyman Minsky, instead caused increasing instability.
Hayek was very influential at the time. His book The Road To Serfdom was turned into a cartoon and distributed to workers by, among others, General Motors (here) and later Friedman, whose Chicago School teachings were sponsored by Ford and others, influenced governments.
It is the ideological obsession with privatisation, deregulation, cuts and austerity that has caused growing inequality and declining economic growth and instability.
Neoliberalism is an ideology with as many defining features as capitalism, socialism or fascism and as such is now the driving force dictating the direction of travel in much of the world.
As already said, Neoliberalism was conceived in opposition to fascism, it says that state planning, state intervention and state spending on public works are what created fascism, but Hayek and others were also against the ‘Keynesian’ ideas behind the New Deal for the same reasons and while Fascist sympathisers might’ve been a threat in the US, state planning/spending etc was not part of their agenda.
The third irony is that although born out of a fear of Fascism, Neoliberalism’s main fight has been against the Social Democracy of ‘Keynesianism’
As @gavreid has suggested on another thread, fascism in terms of a 1930’s style dictatorship is unlikely today, and perhaps not a useful term to describe the threats to democracy that still remain today and that seems to be shaping up today in the form of a growing plutocracy, accompanied by the rise and influence of institutions in Tufton St in the UK.
Neoliberalism is a set of clear economic beliefs and objectives that are it’s driving force.
A second deep irony is that it was also conceived as a corrective against Democracy which Hayek and Friedman saw as bringing in unwelcome interference from government in the running of a free market which according to their theories tended towards equilibrium. It’s internal mechanism has, according to other thinkers like Hyman Minsky, instead caused increasing instability.
Hayek was very influential at the time. His book The Road To Serfdom was turned into a cartoon and distributed to workers by, among others, General Motors (here) and later Friedman, whose Chicago School teachings were sponsored by Ford and others, influenced governments.
It is the ideological obsession with privatisation, deregulation, cuts and austerity that has caused growing inequality and declining economic growth and instability.
Neoliberalism is an ideology with as many defining features as capitalism, socialism or fascism and as such is now the driving force dictating the direction of travel in much of the world.
As already said, Neoliberalism was conceived in opposition to fascism, it says that state planning, state intervention and state spending on public works are what created fascism, but Hayek and others were also against the ‘Keynesian’ ideas behind the New Deal for the same reasons and while Fascist sympathisers might’ve been a threat in the US, state planning/spending etc was not part of their agenda.
The third irony is that although born out of a fear of Fascism, Neoliberalism’s main fight has been against the Social Democracy of ‘Keynesianism’
As @gavreid has suggested on another thread, fascism in terms of a 1930’s style dictatorship is unlikely today, and perhaps not a useful term to describe the threats to democracy that still remain today and that seems to be shaping up today in the form of a growing plutocracy, accompanied by the rise and influence of institutions in Tufton St in the UK.
Neoliberalism is a set of clear economic beliefs and objectives that are it’s driving force.
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Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
I take your point, but I'd argue that what you describe is lazy rhetoric, of the same type which uses 'socialism', 'communism' and now 'woke', as a catch all critique of all opposition, but particularly liberal opposition.
Neoliberalism is a very clear ideology, essentially based on an extreme adherence to private sector, low tax, small state, deregulated economy, sold to the poorer echelons of society via the false promise of 'Trickle down'.
As KS points out, even if its original motives were benign, it has become quite simply a device used by 'big money' to subvert and undermine democracy.
But what really grinds my gears ....is that unlike 'socialism', 'woke' etc, neoliberalism is not a term bandied about much by the ' hoi-polloi' or by politicians and political commentators.. and that is a major part of the problem. Neolib is a pretty much hidden dynamic. Hidden in plain sight.. as it were.
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Fatmarley
"It appears my intelligence circuits have melted"
I don't know if it's true, but I read somewhere that Muslims give far more to charity than anyone else.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Meloni uses it interchangeably with ‘globalisation.’ She is a classic fascist isolationist, although nowhere near as dangerous as Le Pen- who looks set to become the next French President.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
I’m no expert on Islam, but charitable giving is integral to the Muslim faith. It’s a variation on the Christian “whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren” creed. We sometimes hold our Palestine Solidarity Campaign meetings at the local mosque. We are made to feel very welcome and supplied with copious tea/ coffee/ fruit juice/ biscuits etc. All they ask is that we remove our footwear.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
I have to give 2.5% of all of my assets annually as zakat. The only major exceptions are the house I live in and one car.
If I have rental properties or a business, I pay this tithe on the income. It is basically a wealth tax that encourages wealth to be working, not hoarded. On top of zakat, giving to charity is strongly encouraged
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
I suppose their next move will be to move the seat of French government to Vichy...
Cav
pfm Member
to whom is this paid and what do they do with it?
PaulMB
pfm Member
It makes me a little uncomfortable to read very direct and un-nuanced definitions of economics and politics. For instance, "unbridled capitalism" does not necessarily lead to Fascism. Just as a state-controlled and designed economic system, with great welfare services, does not necessarily produce, or need be the result of "democracy." In fact welfare and state investments were essential elements of both Italian Fascism and German Nazism. And if you have elections that democratically produce a right-wing government that some would describe as "Fascist," what then?
Finally, and not before time, your definition of neoliberalism that I have been repeatedly asking of you for months! Thank you. Despite numerous claims to the contrary, you have never previously offered this, instead going down the "neoliberalism is the opposite of democracy" route, over and over again and most recently as seen yesterday on this thread.
I'm going to print this out and refer to it.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Nothing said here I haven’t said many times before, but glad you feel empowered now. I didn’t say that democracy and capitalism were opposites, I said democracy was an alternative to capitalism. Even that was obviously an over simplification, a shortcut to get to the point that neoliberalism is in opposition to the achievements of democracy, but that is again, something I've mentioned before
Purely anecdotal this. After a heavy workout at the allotment I will be looking a bit grubby and feeling a bit tired. My treat, on the way home, is to pop in to my local Sainsburys for a big bag of ready salted and a bottle of Staropramen which I consume outside the shop by the trolleys. I have been offered money (often the pound coin that gets ejected from the trolley) and/or asked if I am OK. It is, without exception, someone who I assume to be Muslim that does this.
Cav
pfm Member
Thanks. Interesting that it is voluntary in most countries and where it is mandatory it is often evaded.
Zakat - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
There bloody well is and you know it, otherwise I wouldn't have posted. I've asked repeatedly.
Before going on to talk about neoliberalism in the same breath, so very definitely linking if not conflating the two.
You have said a good deal about neoliberalism, you have been the main offender on here for using it as a vague catch-all. This is why I have repeatedly, repeatedly asked for a definition and got everything from denial to "I've told you once " and sneering in return. So once again, finally, thank you.