Fancy Protractors?

[clivem2]

I've always used the various protractors that come with various tonearms, never had an issue but just wondered what other folks experiences or opinions were on the various protractors now available, I don't think any of these were available 20 years ago and we managed just fine.

They probably said the same about outside toilets....

If you’ve not used one it’ll hard to imagine how much easier and predicable it is. As I said earlier, it’s surprising how much better setup often is as a result. Of course it’s hard to justify the cost if you only install a cartridge once every 3 years or so.

 

[yeti42]

The smartractor’s very good if the money isn’t an issue and with fading eyesight a great help, the later Fieckert isn’t quite as good and if the platter is dished will need an unwanted record under it or it will be off. If you have good eyesight and are not trying to set spindle to pivot distance than the printed or card ones will do fine.

 

[GT]

If you have good eyesight and are not trying to set spindle to pivot distance than the printed or card ones will do fine.

When I go to do cartridge installations I always check the original geometry using a Smartractor before fitting the new cartridge. I have been horrified at how far out some were. I remember one client where a well known dealer had set his previous cartridge up using a paper card so I was told, Rega I believe. The cartridge overhang was 6mm out!

 

[clivem2]

When I go to do cartridge installations I always check the original geometry using a Smartractor before fitting the new cartridge. I have been horrified at how far out some were. I remember one client where a well known dealer had set his previous cartridge up using a paper card so I was told, Rega I believe. The cartridge overhang was 6mm out!

That is a point I’ve been trying to make, many setups I’ve checked have been out. With the overhang a long way out it is possible to have a setup that somehow looks close to right but in reality the setup is not great at all. Even the venerable PL-12D had an overhang aid built into it...it was imprecise but a lot better than nothing.

 

[starbuck]

I don't think any of these were available 20 years ago and we managed just fine.

The Denneson Geometric Soundtraktor came out in the early 1980s, I think, and works in a similar way to the Smartractor, Feickert, Project, Clearaudio, etc., although it only provided a single alignment type as standard.

 

[clivem2]

Very basic...but here's the Pioneer Overhang Checker from 1973. Set overhang first then complete alignment.

 

[Tony L]

Very basic...but here's the Pioneer Overhang Checker from 1973.

I do like the simplicity of that. Assuming the cart is perfectly straight in the shell it should give exactly the result the designer intended.

To be honest turntables are a complete mess. An engineering embarrassment. If stylus tip to cartridge mounting lugs had been standardised way back in the 1950s when the 12” LP became the record format of choice an arm would only need mounting holes. Headshell slots only exist at all as a result of poor design standards.

 

[Howdy]

When I go to do cartridge installations I always check the original geometry using a Smartractor before fitting the new cartridge. I have been horrified at how far out some were. I remember one client where a well known dealer had set his previous cartridge up using a paper card so I was told, Rega I believe. The cartridge overhang was 6mm out!

That is a point I’ve been trying to make, many setups I’ve checked have been out. With the overhang a long way out it is possible to have a setup that somehow looks close to right but in reality the setup is not great at all. Even the venerable PL-12D had an overhang aid built into it...it was imprecise but a lot better than nothing.

It's impossible to setup a cart "wrong" with a 2-null-points protractor. Not impossible, but you know what I mean - not protractor's fault.

There are many reasons why the setup would not agree with fancy protractor:
1. OK, dealer did a terrible job, possible.
2. Original dealer didn't use 2-null points protractor, but a single point protractor, but the arm distance is incorrect for some reason.
3. TT manufacturer uses different geometry than fancy protractor: e.g. Rega has its own geometry which is not exactly Baerwald nor Stevenson nor Löfgren; same goes for Roksan etc.
So cart was perhaps perfectly setup for some other geometry, doesn't mean fancy protractor is better.
4. Perhaps the dealer used cantilever position to setup the cart and you were only looking at cart body or the other way around.
5. You were both looking at cantilever, but in the meantime cantilever shifted/bent with record playback.
6. Other reasons.

Fancy protractors may be useful if you setup carts on daily or weekly basis, but are not necessary even then. IMO they don's save huge amounts of time either.
There's nothing wrong with buying fancy stuff, but fancy protractors can't help better, more precise cart installation than cheap or free 2-null-points. They can make you feel better and they do have some optical aids, that can make the job easier.

 

[Howdy]

I do like the simplicity of that. Assuming the cart is perfectly straight in the shell it should give exactly the result the designer intended.

To be honest turntables are a complete mess. An engineering embarrassment. If stylus tip to cartridge mounting lugs had been standardised way back in the 1950s when the 12” LP became the record format of choice an arm would only need mounting holes. Headshell slots only exist at all as a result of poor design standards.

But cantilevers are not always perfectly straight, nor do they stay that way.

 

[clivem2]

It's impossible to setup a cart "wrong" with a 2-null-points protractor. Not impossible, but you know what I mean - not protractor's fault.

It depends what you mean by "wrong". With overhang being significantly out it's still possible to get the cartridge looking close to aligned to the two positions but heaven knows what the alignment/geometry actually is. Not Baerwald, Stevenson, Löfgren but a unique one.

 

[Tony L]

But cantilevers are not always perfectly straight, nor do they stay that way.

Yes, I guess that is a factor, though I’ve tended to return cartridges that arrive with an off-centre cantilever. If you don’t under or over-use anti-skate they tend to stay straight enough IME.

To be honest I think many people over-think this, and others use that tendency to market absurdly expensive protractors etc that to my mind are unnecessary. I remember playing around for hours on end as a teenager with the Townsend Elite Alignment Gauge where you ended up plotting a little graph etc. The penny eventually dropped with me that there is *always* going to be tracking error with any pivoted arm and given the arm length, pivot point and headshell offset you are really only choosing where you want the two null points. I find myself perfectly happy with the early SME and Rega compromise, i.e. Stevenson (or close to it) as that last bit of a long-playing album (e.g. much classical) is by far the worst and hardest to get right. If that means I don’t have perfectly optimised alignment for amazing sounding 15-17 minute Blue Notes etc it just doesn’t really matter as they sound amazing anyway! One day I do fancy trying a 12” arm as they are clearly superior from a geometry perspective.

PS I’ve come full circle and I’m back using the sort of medium to high compliance MM carts with really high-end tip profiles that I started my hi-fi journey with way back in the late ‘70s. I just love how clean they are end of side! I’m currently using a Nagaoka MP-500 aligned with a simple SME card protractor (arm is an early 3009) and it sails through absolutely anything without fluster. As good tracking/tracing as I’ve ever had despite being an arm cart combo many would sneer at.

 

[Howdy]

It depends what you mean by "wrong". With overhang being significantly out it's still possible to get the cartridge looking close to aligned to the two positions but heaven knows what the alignment/geometry actually is. Not Baerwald, Stevenson, Löfgren but a unique one.

There must be some paradigmatic misunderstanding here. It is impossible to get the cartridge looking close to aligned at 66mm and 120.9mm points on even the most basic or primitive protractor and have overhang significantly out. You got Baerwald.

The point of aligning carts is not to achieve optimal overhang, the point is to achieve perfect alignment on two (selected) null points. Once you get this, you also have optimal overhang, which is not really a thing on its own.

 

[clivem2]

There must be some paradigmatic misunderstanding here. It is impossible to get the cartridge looking close to aligned at 66mm and 120.9mm points on even the most basic or primitive protractor and have overhang significantly out. You got Baerwald.

The point of aligning carts is not to achieve optimal overhang, the point is to achieve perfect alignment on two (selected) null points. Once you get this, you also have optimal overhang, which is not really a thing on its own.

Getting overhang right first is a very good first step which gets you into the right ballpark for a good setup...that's all it is - a first step - you then finalise it with the 2 null-points. I have seen setups where one null-point looks spot on and the other is close with overhang being way out. Often the person doing the setup is happy with that. Which is fine. Your "close" and other peoples' "close" probably differ.

Correct overhang is not the objective, it's a sensible step on the way to a good alignment - if I were to design a process for a production operative would I expect them to get it right in a single step or 2 steps? The 1st step gets you in the ballpark and the 2nd step aims for high accuracy. Someone who aligns cartridge every few years is going to struggle with a single step setup. Certainly it is possible to get it right but I've seen many that are not aligned as I would want.

 

[Howdy]

I find myself perfectly happy with the early SME and Rega compromise, i.e. Stevenson (or close to it) as that last bit of a long-playing album (e.g. much classical) is by far the worst and hardest to get right.

Similar here, I align the cart just a little more out of the center, because majority of records don't reach 60mm anyway and since I mostly use microlinear stylus, I don't really have problems with inner groove distortion anyway.

 

[Bairnstorm]

Getting spindle to pivot of course matters but what these protractors also do is to use this geometry to then set overhang. It’s doing this that make cartridge setup a breeze.

Once you set spindle to pivot you can set nul points and end up with two points so overhang is catered for.

 

[Darren L]

Thanks for all the informative answers, looks like a may need to buy/borrow one

 

[Stunsworth]

How does this relate to an SME arm where the adjustment is in the arm base rather than the head shell?

 

[Darren L]

How does this relate to an SME arm where the adjustment is in the arm base rather than the head shell?

y

I'm not using an SME tonearm but the two that I owned previously did come with excellent set up tools including a protractor. My main reason for asking is I think the tonearm I may be getting does not come with a protractor.

 

[Stunsworth]

I'm not using an SME tonearm but the two that I owned previously did come with excellent set up tools including a protractor. My main reason for asking is I think the tonearm I may be getting does not come with a protractor.

I asked for the same reason, no protractor or anything similar with mine.

 

[Darren L]

Is it an SME? If so there's a guy on Ebay sells lots of SME tools, parts , etc, easily spotted always with a red background, hth