European Parliament elections

[TheDecameron]

I just don’t get this Lexit customs union stuff. Every damned form of Brexit will damage the economy, the ability to fund public spending and the real incomes of the worst off in particular. Why are Labour pursuing this shit? It’s to win a minority seats in England and screw everyone else. The problem is the plan ain’t working- theyve won no Leavers back and haemorrhaged Remain Labour voters. This is a road to nowhere with Corbyn and Co in a separate clown car from May. Maybe they’ll do us a favour and have a head on with Treeza’s before either of them cause any more damage.
Give us a public vote- the thing both dinosaurs are terrified of because it’ll give the lie to their “will of the people/ the peoples just wantin us to get this done/get it over the line” bullshit.

 

[SteveS1]

If Leavers thought "the Will of the people" was unchanged now that people know much more, they would be all over a confirmatory vote like a rash. They are desperate to avoid a more informed and detailed choice.

 

[Cav]

Wrong.

No, seriously, you are wrong as in wrong. Time will tell you so.

 

[tuga]

Yeah, the smart move is obviously to vote LibDem. After all, they proved themselves so honest and trustworthy when Corporal Clegg was doing his “I’m just an ordinary guy” Nigel Farage tribute act. They’re nothing more than grubby, political opportunists who will go where the meal ticket to a sniff of power takes them.

Much as I detest Farage and can see he’s a total conman, at heart he’s been consistent and stuck to his views.

I can understand people like Mull voting Green. I like the Greens and find little to take issue with in their policies.

But LibDems? Really? After last time?

What happened the last time. A link is fine if you don't feel like writing.

 

[SteveS1]

Steve,

No, with respect you have that wrong, imo. What is important is the UK. It just happens that the only party that can win a general election other than the tories is Labour. That’s not hardline support of Labour.

I don't think it's as simple as that. Their equivocation on Brexit is damaging Labour in a way that I'm afraid the Tories may well yet avoid.

As bad as the polls are for both parties in the Euro elections, what's important is where the voters are going to from the two main parties and how transient the effect might be. Many Tories may be going with The Brexit Shitshow on Thurs, but polling GE intentions show that they will go back pretty swiftly especially with a new leader when the Farage factor in the Euros is removed.

Labour on the other hand, is losing voters to other left and centre parties without the same level of indication that they would immediately return for a GE. Hung parliament looks favourite to me, I don't see Labour getting enough.

 

[Brian]

My suspicion/hope is the days of two party politics are all but over. I certainly can’t see either Labour or Conservative winning a majority anytime soon, and I have no issue with that. In the past decade there has only been one very slim (Tory) majority, which they amusingly pissed away. Other than that we have firmly been in hung parliament/coalition territory. My hope is obviously that we gradually transition to a proper democracy, and I suspect it will come as the two party system is clearly no longer fit for purpose.

We had the chance of a proper democracy but that was lost by the sell-out of the LibDems in 2010. Unforgiveable.

As for the present, we are where we are and the most important thing is that we have a Labour govt to try to repair the damage done by the tory party. They have wrecked so much I despair that people obsess about brexit. Brexit is just a part of the havoc the tories have created that needs to be addressed.

 

[Tony L]

We had the chance of a proper democracy but that was lost by the sell-out of the LibDems in 2010. Unforgiveable.

Agreed, but I suspect it will happen over time. The current system is clearly broken and more and more people now grasp that.

 

[droodzilla]

I don't think it's as simple as that. Their equivocation on Brexit is damaging Labour in a way that I'm afraid the Tories may well yet avoid.

As bad as the polls are for both parties in the Euro elections, what's important is where the voters are going to from the two main parties and how transient the effect might be. Many Tories may be going with The Brexit Shitshow on Thurs, but polling GE intentions show that they will go back pretty swiftly especially with a new leader when the Farage factor in the Euros is removed.

Labour on the other hand, is losing voters to other left and centre parties without the same level of indication that they would immediately return for a GE. Hung parliament looks favourite to me, I don't see Labour getting enough.

The last few GE polls consistently show that Labour will be the biggest party but will fall short of an overall majority by anything between 6 and 30 odd seats. So, as things stand, we're looking at a Labour government, supported by the SNP (+ Greens etc.).

Of course, the polls at this stage are quite worthless as the political situation is so volatile.

Regarding the transience of the impact on the two main parties, you might be right but I hope that, faced with the prospect of a far-right Tory/Brexit monster, disaffected Labour voters get their shit together and do anything and everything to stop it. If they don't they will only have themselves to blame for the far-right hellscape that follows.

 

[droodzilla]

Interesting article about tactical voting:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...PlBg-YcoLb-z5goTz66MgIiPn3Q2YotoRdrCzt-UOridA

A bit more nuanced than Gina Miller's advice which I see increasingly as a Lib-Dem whitewash.

Jackbarron linked to another tactical voting website which looked quite good and explained its methodolgy (which was as sensible as anything else I've seen). Does anyone have that link?

Finally, this has been posted before but it's interesting, although of less immediate practical use:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/ep-elections-tactical-voting/

 

[gassor]

The last few GE polls consistently show that Labour will be the biggest party but will fall short of an overall majority by anything between 6 and 30 odd seats. So, as things stand, we're looking at a Labour government, supported by the SNP (+ Greens etc.).

And if Labour got rid of Corbyn they'd be home and dry.

 

[misterdog]

a bunch of unprincipled charlatans who can't be trusted.

Sums it all up to me - all of them.

Then the electorate are no better, they can't accept the vote that has been cast.
Perhaps the future of democracy is to demand a recount or re-run after every vote.

" oh but we were misled and lied to"

That is the job of politicians and always has been.
Say one thing to get your vote, then back-pedal furiously.

£ 10/hour minimum for 16/17 year olds ROFL. Makes my £ 50 per week carers allowance look out of kilter, maybe Jezza is planning to raise it to £ 10/hour also....

 

[maxflinn]

She's ChUK, max.

Oh, yes

 

[maxflinn]

Neither statement is true. Corbyn, I’m sorry to say, has made Labour less electable. Labour’s present destructive ambiguity is more likely to render defeat for them at the next GE.

I respectfully disagree sir.

 

[kendo]

Wrong.

Not in Scotland boyo...(see, we do speak Welsh up here)

 

[kendo]

I respectfully disagree sir.

Not in Scotland boyo...(see, we do speak Welsh up here)

 

[jackbarron]

Interesting article about tactical voting:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...PlBg-YcoLb-z5goTz66MgIiPn3Q2YotoRdrCzt-UOridA

A bit more nuanced than Gina Miller's advice which I see increasingly as a Lib-Dem whitewash.

Jackbarron linked to another tactical voting website which looked quite good and explained its methodolgy (which was as sensible as anything else I've seen). Does anyone have that link?

Finally, this has been posted before but it's interesting, although of less immediate practical use:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/ep-elections-tactical-voting/

Here's the link for Remain Voter: https://www.remainvoter.com/?fbclid=IwAR31DNEmsfKtOBovtn1kOCC3KkbT5yff6EETz0Ydgqa2b3iM2gxqKuWIP28

All I've done so far is enter my email address, when I hit the join button. I got an email back this morning, which said they would send their their recommendations out on Saturday i.e. today.

"On Saturday, Remain Voter will provide voters with clear, independent recommendations so they can make the best tactical vote in their region and maximise the impact of every vote in the European Election on Thursday 23 May."

It will be interesting to see what turns up. I agree with you about the Gina Miller Remain United website, it does seem like a Lib Dem whitewash.

Jack

 

[ff1d1l]

No, seriously, you are wrong as in wrong. Time will tell you so.

When?
And, in that case when will your wrong be right? Give us a date...not, I guess the 23rd of May, when I will be right and you will be wrong. But something firm in the future?
Spill the beans Mystic Cav

 

[ff1d1l]

Not in Scotland boyo...(see, we do speak Welsh up here)

Well, as Wales once extended up to and included Edinburgh (Dineidyn), I guess its a folk memory you have there...

 

[SteveS1]

Interesting article about tactical voting:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...PlBg-YcoLb-z5goTz66MgIiPn3Q2YotoRdrCzt-UOridA

A bit more nuanced than Gina Miller's advice which I see increasingly as a Lib-Dem whitewash.

Jackbarron linked to another tactical voting website which looked quite good and explained its methodolgy (which was as sensible as anything else I've seen). Does anyone have that link?

Finally, this has been posted before but it's interesting, although of less immediate practical use:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/ep-elections-tactical-voting/

Drood, we have had plenty of hard left commentators telling us how simply awful those Lib Dems are for their involvement in austerity.

Presumably the logic being that by trying to limit or influence the extent of Tory intentions, they themselves became even more responsible for austerity than the Tories themselves. Nobody seemed interested in the possibility that without the Lib Dem influence, Tory austerity might have been even worse. So for the Lib Dems - all downside and no credit whatsoever. Collaborator scum, should have known better even if that led to full Tory government etc. etc.

When it comes to Brexit, these same people seem to think that playing midwife of otherwise enabling Tory Brexit will leave Labour unsullied, untainted and with credit in the bank just in time for the GE. I would argue that both these over simplifications were and are ridiculous. That both Lib Dem and Labour can argue with justification, that without their intervention it would be worse.

But the thing is, much more is expected by activists and helping the Tories in any way, however well intentioned, will lead to a price being paid. Add this to an already Marmite leader up against a Tory refresh and I think you are being remarkably optimistic. We'll see.

 

[Lee T]

If Leavers thought "the Will of the people" was unchanged now that people know much more, they would be all over a confirmatory vote like a rash. They are desperate to avoid a more informed and detailed choice.

People who voted leave have no need for another ref, this is what you seem to be missing. Why would leavers be all over another ref when we are currently in the middle of Brexit. Only those who voted remain want another ref in the hope of a remain result as this is the only way Brexit will be stopped in the short term. Otherwise years could pass by before it's eventual demise, which I fully expect to happen, outside of a second ref.