Don't let anyone tell you mains supply doesn't matter
- Thread starter kjb
- Start date
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Sorry, Jez, out of respect for Tony's forum, I'm not going there. I'll leave others to decide, based on your behaviour on this thread, particularly towards Steve, who's the arrogant one here, and historically always has been.
Interesting though, that you recognised yourself from my earlier description
The issue, in terms of arrogance [and intolerance], is with how you express yourself, not the points you make, and Steve (who was doing his level best to be polite) didn't deserve to be spoken to like that.
If or when you develop some people skills, you may be able to successfully impart your knowledge on others, without simply irking them to the point of non-interest.
Marco.
Says someone with utter tin foil hat views on a subject he has less than zero knowledge of in a thread he's joined to troll. The rudeness and arrogance is on the part of those who in spite of around half a dozen engineers and physicists so far saying there is no such mechanism at work and no possibility of any effect on hi fi equipment continue to insist they know better..." 'cos we don't need experts"
Marco
AoS Representative
Contrary to your assertion, I joined this thread to contribute my valid experiences, in reference to the thread topic, which you've chosen to rudely dismiss, simply because they don't fit with your (at times) rather blinkered scientific belief system.
In any case, I made my point very clearly before, so have no need to repeat myself, regardless of your desire to create conflict, therefore you'll receive no further response from me.
Marco.
In any case, I made my point very clearly before, so have no need to repeat myself, regardless of your desire to create conflict, therefore you'll receive no further response from me.
Marco.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Didn't realise initially it was you, Marco, as there's another one on pfm (or used to be). Your sentence above is what a revolving discussion here has been about. Ian G has still to come up with why this would be a 'potential disaster', but Blackmetalballoon was gracious enough to research this and give me a response. Notwithstanding his reply, there's still no definitive reason why a hard-wired radial with compatible MCB element isn't safe.
I believe the foot-dragging is because it's not a standard electrical way to do things, but according to BMB's response, there's nothing in the reg's which proscribe it.
I empathise with you, Joe, as I've been waiting for months for a man to come and fix my door-bell; he keeps saying I'm never in when he calls........ Regardless of my knackered lug-holes, I still thoroughly enjoy listening on my ESLs or cans, but unfortunately this is now only in short and less frequent bursts as I tend to drop off. Always manage to wake up as the record finishes though (luckily?).
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Dear me, Jez. Your skills are well acknowledged on here, along with your ability to offer sound (!) and helpful advice, but you do yourself a disservice by standing on your high-impedance soap-box and ranting against those who have a very valid, albeit more subjective take on this arcane subject of sound quality influenced by that premier source, the electricity supply. Unfortunately, your accusations of arrogance in others is tantamount to being a reflection you cannot see. 'Umbly yours.
Marco
AoS Representative
Yup, 'tis me, Mike - the one and only!
In terms of any compromised safety with hardwiring, I was thinking in terms of subsequent plug fuse removal. In that respect, it's safer overall to have that fuse in place.
Marco.
Very poor Marco. Hearing loss, age related or not, deserves an appropriate response rather than the above. If you live long enough, more than likely, you will understand.Never mind that, but if your hearing is so shite, then why bother owning an expensive hi-fi system?
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Cross porpoises here in fishie land, Marco. Hard wiring obviates the need for sockets and plugs (and especially plug fuses). As I know others who have this system, including an electrician with his own company, I shall accept the safety of this until someone holds up a great big card saying 'this is because'. However, this is water under the bridge for me now with my current music listening habits but I still retain an academic interest as in the halcyon days of upper Naim, as it were.
Marco
AoS Representative
Apologies for any offence caused, which was unintentional. My comment was entirely tongue-in-cheek, hence the smiley at the end. Also, it was Joe himself who admitted to having 'shite hearing', so I was simply responding to that.
Marco.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
I did? I don't recall discussing earth rods, let alone suggesting how to connect one, Ian. Is it my memory or your embellished and/or imaginary take on sth I've said?
Marco
AoS Representative
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, Mike, but isn't the plug fuse designed to protect the partnering cable from damage, etc, so in that respect, how can removing it improve safety?
Essentially, how is *the lead itself* protected if you remove the plug fuse?
Don't get me wrong, I'm totally with you, in terms of the rest of your argument, but simply highlighting that sole point.
Marco.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Inappropriate (faux?) sensitivity to jest? I have lived long enough (and, D.G., may last a little longer) and am quite Mutt 'n' Jeff but I couldn't take umbrage from this; just a fact of life. luckily, it doesn't seem to adversely affect my audio enjoyment so I put it down to that brain equalisation factor mentioned on occasion. Maybe ESLs? Who knows; who cares.
Frizzy
Liberal anarchist
Ps only fuses in my system are breakers at one end and (upgraded)internal fuses at other, fully pat tested and given landlords certification. Mains runs unobstructed from box to kit, separate rings for digital,analogue and video. I rent but been here 14 years and landlord is a brick.
martin clark
pinko bodger
Absolutely No such thing in the UK.
Your landlord may have given you licence to make such an agreed change to his property - but that's absolutely nothing to do with adherence to IEE wiring regs, or the things your (and his!) insurers may care about.
Your/any landlord has zero ability to 'certify' that latter part - yet your alterations needs to remain compliant in those terms (Just a heads-up - I'm offering no judgement, to be clear)
The plug fuse is in place to protect the cable from the plug to the appliance, which is normally protected by its own internal fuse. If the rating of the mcb or rcbo at the Consumer Unit is lower than the current capacity of the in wall wiring and the cable to the appliance, then there is no need for further fuses.
If you remember the old round pin plugs, you’ll also remember that they didn’t include plug fuses. Ring circuits are basically the reason for plug fuses, with the ring rated at 32A and the plug to appliance leads generally rated at 13A or less.
Cheers Bill
If you remember the old round pin plugs, you’ll also remember that they didn’t include plug fuses. Ring circuits are basically the reason for plug fuses, with the ring rated at 32A and the plug to appliance leads generally rated at 13A or less.
Cheers Bill
Frizzy
Liberal anarchist
As far as I know any landlords registered with council require gas and electrical safety certificates to be checked yearly.
Electricity supplier checked whole street recently when fitting new meters, not a peep of worry, it was then I had mains earth compared to separate copper rod.
Electricity supplier checked whole street recently when fitting new meters, not a peep of worry, it was then I had mains earth compared to separate copper rod.
Blackmetalboon
pfm Member
Hi Mike, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I would consider this a bad design.
While an MCB (or RCBO in your case) can be used for general isolation, emergency isolation and functional switching it is usually impractical in a domestic setting. Having to dash to a consumer unit elsewhere in the property (usually in an awkward location) and move all the clutter out of the way (I’ve worked in enough under stairs cupboards to know!) takes time.
Electricians will assess risks, it may seem OTT, but the job is about minimising potential dangers. Not providing a local source of isolation increases risk, which is why I bought up using an IEC lead for isolation. Once that is hardwired to the circuit, it forms part of the circuit and then falls under the electrical regulations (BS 7671) but an IEC lead/plug/socket is not listed in as a means of isolation in BS 7671.
There are instances where I do hardwire appliances to circuits or use unswitched sockets but in every instance I provide means for local isolation that is readily accessible.
Blackmetalboon
pfm Member
On another note, people do keep mentioning lowering mains impedance.
@Ian G has mentioned earth fault loop impedance tests. This is taken from every point on the circuit but the highest reading will be from the point furthest away from the consumer unit. The test measures the impedance between the live conductor and earth all the way back to your source of supply (local substation/transformer).
The regulations do state the maximum allowed readings for earth fault loop impedance of the over current device protecting the circuit (fuse/MCB/RCBO). When testing a circuit there is a 80% “rule of thumb” which we have to apply to the measured readings. Why? Because a circuits impedance increases with temperature. A circuit operating at/near its maximum design current can raise the conductors temperature to 70°/90° (depending on cable type). The 20% difference will dwarf any reduction in impedance gained by hardwiring/unobtainium plated socket/fancy mains cables/audiophile fuse.
Again, @Ian G did bring up cable derating due to ambient temperature, cable grouping and how/where the cable is run. The conductors ability to dissipate heat not only affects the conductors insulation but also it’s impedance.
@Ian G has mentioned earth fault loop impedance tests. This is taken from every point on the circuit but the highest reading will be from the point furthest away from the consumer unit. The test measures the impedance between the live conductor and earth all the way back to your source of supply (local substation/transformer).
The regulations do state the maximum allowed readings for earth fault loop impedance of the over current device protecting the circuit (fuse/MCB/RCBO). When testing a circuit there is a 80% “rule of thumb” which we have to apply to the measured readings. Why? Because a circuits impedance increases with temperature. A circuit operating at/near its maximum design current can raise the conductors temperature to 70°/90° (depending on cable type). The 20% difference will dwarf any reduction in impedance gained by hardwiring/unobtainium plated socket/fancy mains cables/audiophile fuse.
Again, @Ian G did bring up cable derating due to ambient temperature, cable grouping and how/where the cable is run. The conductors ability to dissipate heat not only affects the conductors insulation but also it’s impedance.
No problem Marco
Good manInappropriate (faux?) sensitivity to jest? I have lived long enough (and, D.G., may last a little longer) and am quite Mutt 'n' Jeff but I couldn't take umbrage from this; just a fact of life. luckily, it doesn't seem to adversely affect my audio enjoyment so I put it down to that brain equalisation factor mentioned on occasion. Maybe ESLs? Who knows; who cares.