Do you need to be discrete?

[BlueEyes]

Can someone please tell me whether discrete improves the sound?

I assume ATC would not be using them in their top product in preference to op - amps if such was not the case.

I accept that it may just be a marketing ploy at the request of their overseas customers but as far as I am aware ATC are not renowned for pandering to the crowd.

If discrete does improve the sound it appears logical that others will follow unless they can produce a better sound with op - amps?

Answers in words of one syllable, please, for my benefit.

 

[stevec67]

Can someone please tell me whether discrete improves the sound?

No, not necessarily. As we have said. Some discrete circuits will be better than some ICs. Some ICs will be better than some discrete circuits.

I assume ATC would not be using them in their top product in preference to op - amps if such was not the case.

ATC will be using them in their top models because they hopefully sound better that the ICs that ATC have used to date. Do they sound better than all ICs? Maybe, maybe not.

I accept that it may just be a marketing ploy at the request of their overseas customers

Now we are getting somewhere.

but as far as I am aware ATC are not renowned for pandering to the crowd.

This holds about as much water as someone the other day saying "hifi is a purchase that isn't subject to marketing".

If discrete does improve the sound it appears logical that others will follow unless they can produce a better sound with op - amps?

Not all discrete circuits are better. Some are, some aren't, which is where I came in. Some manufacturers won't use the very best they can get for cost reasons. This is regardless of component choice.

Answers in words of one syllable, please, for my benefit.

Here you go. Any good?

 

[Arkless Electronics]

They were off the shelf, just that nobody in the HiFi industry had heard of them. Walt Jung noted the HA2500 series in his 2005 Op Amp Applications book
Quoting:
In the early seventies, just about the only truly fast IC process was owned by Harris Semiconductor. This
dielectrically isolated process produced equal speed NPN and PNPs. and the Harris HA250O series became
popular for fast settling characteristics. In 1973 ADI released the fast AD509 op amp. a screened Harris part

I'll well aware of all that. I'm talking about when PNP devices of really good performance became readily available at "normal" prices.

 

[BlueEyes]

No, not necessarily. As we have said. Some discrete circuits will be better than some ICs. Some ICs will be better than some discrete circuits.

ATC will be using them in their top models because they hopefully sound better that the ICs that ATC have used to date. Do they sound better than all ICs? Maybe, maybe not.

Now we are getting somewhere.
This holds about as much water as someone the other day saying "hifi is a purchase that isn't subject to marketing".

Not all discrete circuits are better. Some are, some aren't, which is where I came in. Some manufacturers won't use the very best they can get for cost reasons. This is regardless of component choice.

Here you go. Any good?

Steve,

ATC have a reputation built on studio use.

I assume for that reason alone they use the very best op - amps available especially for their high end active speakers.

Presumably ATC are not going to replace op - amps with something that provides an inferior sound?

Ipso facto.

The discrete components they have replaced them with provide a superior sound?

Is that any good?

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Can someone please tell me whether discrete improves the sound?

I assume ATC would not be using them in their top product in preference to op - amps if such was not the case.

I accept that it may just be a marketing ploy at the request of their overseas customers but as far as I am aware ATC are not renowned for pandering to the crowd.

If discrete does improve the sound it appears logical that others will follow unless they can produce a better sound with op - amps?

Answers in words of one syllable, please, for my benefit.

YES! Clear enough? Everything I say refers generically to audio electronics though. I have no interest in what ATC choose to do or not do.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

So you're saying you like some distortion. That's OK, but please don't confuse personal preference with fidelity.

No I am not. What I am saying is that most of what is important in audio electronics cannot be measured.
If something measures bad it WILL sound bad. If it measures as state of the art it MAY still sound bad for reasons presently unknown to science. There's all the easy stuff.. getting THD low, frequency response wide and flat, noise low etc etc... This all needs to be right as the foundation of good sound. When we get to things like sense of depth, sound staging, "air", "separation of instruments", timbrel accuracy etc then science and electronics have no answers.
This is why I find audio electronics so damn interesting!

Anyone who thinks measurements can tell us all is as deluded as those who think mains cables and fuses sound different!

 

[BlueEyes]

YES! Clear enough? Everything I say refers generically to audio electronics though. I have no interest in what ATC choose to do or not do.

Thank you.

 

[stevec67]

Steve,

ATC have a reputation built on studio use.

I assume for that reason alone they use the very best op - amps available especially for their high end active speakers.

It's not a case of "the very best op amps" it's "the most suitable circuit using op-amps". That may or may not be the best out there, it may just be it's the best ATC could come up with at the price and within their manufacturing capability.

Presumably ATC are not going to replace op - amps with something that provides an inferior sound?

They are not going to replace an already good circuit with a worse one, for sure.

The discrete components they have replaced them with provide a superior sound?

The new circuits they have developed that *happen to use discrete components* provide a superior sound.

The FWD Mini of 1959 was a better car than the RWD A30 and A35 that preceded it. Therefore FWD is better? No, not necessarily. Equally a 3 series BMW is a better car than a Ford Orion. Therefore RWD is better, right? No, because a Ford Orion is still a better car than a RWD Lada Riva.

 

[mansr]

No I am not. What I am saying is that most of what is important in audio electronics cannot be measured.
If something measures bad it WILL sound bad. If it measures as state of the art it MAY still sound bad for reasons presently unknown to science. There's all the easy stuff.. getting THD low, frequency response wide and flat, noise low etc etc... This all needs to be right as the foundation of good sound. When we get to things like sense of depth, sound staging, "air", "separation of instruments", timbrel accuracy etc then science and electronics have no answers.
This is why I find audio electronics so damn interesting!

Anyone who thinks measurements can tell us all is as deluded as those who think mains cables and fuses sound different!

Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that an ideal amplifier, if such a thing could be built, might still "sound bad"?

 

[gustavm]

Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that an ideal amplifier, if such a thing could be built, might still "sound bad"?

I guess he is saying that with "ideal" defined within the limitations of what is currently understood, then there is no guarantee it would sound "good", so yes.

 

[BlueEyes]

It's not a case of "the very best op amps" it's "the most suitable circuit using op-amps". That may or may not be the best out there, it may just be it's the best ATC could come up with at the price and within their manufacturing capability.

I mean no disrespect, Steve, when I say that I do not believe that ATC would not use the best op - amps or configuration of the same available as otherwise recording studios would go elsewhere.

That would be bad marketing.

 

[gustavm]

I would be interested to understand the design process though. Having produced a design that meets criteria of good frequency response, low distortion (at different levels of output), low noise etc, is achieving good sound-staging, timbre etc etc something that can be designed, or is it just trial and error?

 

[mansr]

I guess he is saying that with "ideal" defined within the limitations of what is currently understood, then there is no guarantee it would sound "good", so yes.

By ideal I mean the proverbial straight wire with gain, a device where the output voltage is a fixed multiple of the input for any signal.

 

[BlueEyes]

I mean no disrespect, Steve, when I say that I do not believe that ATC would not use the best op - amps or configuration of the same available as otherwise recording studios would go elsewhere.

That would be bad marketing.

 

[mansr]

I would be interested to understand the design process though. Having produced a design that meets criteria of good frequency response, low distortion (at different levels of output), low noise etc, is achieving good sound-staging, timbre etc etc something that can be designed, or is it just trial and error?

All you need for good sound stage is reasonably matched channels. The rest is down to the room and your brain. Timbre is just frequency response. Make it flat and you're set. Again, the speakers and room have much more of an impact there.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that an ideal amplifier, if such a thing could be built, might still "sound bad"?

By definition, an ideal audio amplifier must sound good. The measurements are irrelevant, if that criteria is not met. A measuring amplifier, for example, is a different matter.

 

[stevec67]

I mean no disrespect, Steve, when I say that I do not believe that ATC would not use the best op - amps or configuration of the same available as otherwise recording studios would go elsewhere.

That would be bad marketing.

You can believe this if you wish. You may also wish to believe that they use the best drivers, the best cabinets, the best wiring, the best connectors, the best power supplies, and all the rest. I beleive that they design a product that is the best it can be given that it has to sell for a price customers will pay. This may have some of the very very best in it, but it may have some bits that are merely good. Even Rolls Royce use a bit of recycled clothes fibre in their carpet underlay. Even their electric wiring is standard issue stuff. So if you believe that the ATC op amp based active speakers used the very best op amp electronic circuitry that could be had in the world, ever, anywhere, at any price, and that the discrete version is better again, then clearly the very best discrete circuitry is better than the very best IC op-amp circuitry. *IF* you believe this. But I don't. I think a very good product has been made better again. This happens to involve discrete circuitry which is better than what went before. That's all.

 

[BlueEyes]

You can believe this if you wish. You may also wish to believe that they use the best drivers, the best cabinets, the best wiring, the best connectors, the best power supplies, and all the rest. I beleive that they design a product that is the best it can be given that it has to sell for a price customers will pay. This may have some of the very very best in it, but it may have some bits that are merely good. Even Rolls Royce use a bit of recycled clothes fibre in their carpet underlay. Even their electric wiring is standard issue stuff. So if you believe that the ATC op amp based active speakers used the very best op amp electronic circuitry that could be had in the world, ever, anywhere, at any price, and that the discrete version is better again, then clearly the very best discrete circuitry is better than the very best IC op-amp circuitry. *IF* you believe this. But I don't. I think a very good product has been made better again. This happens to involve discrete circuitry which is better than what went before. That's all.

Steve, it's irrelevant what I believe.

I was just making the point that it appears illogical, to me, that recording studios who know far more than me would buy it if such was not the case.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I would be interested to understand the design process though. Having produced a design that meets criteria of good frequency response, low distortion (at different levels of output), low noise etc, is achieving good sound-staging, timbre etc etc something that can be designed, or is it just trial and error?

It's largely trial and error yes. There are techniques and topologies that we have learned have a better chance of sounding very good than others... also one's which we have found to be not so good, and so we kind of steer things in a certain direction that we hope will give good subjective results. it is not possible to design an amplifier to have a particular sound though beyond those areas which are measurable and have a pretty gross effect. I sometimes get enquiries on the lines of "could you mod my amp to give a more spacious sound but with excellent timbrel accuracy?" to which the answer will ALWAYS be no and I will usually point out that neither can anyone else... it can't be done.
An amp can often be modded to sound better but it ain't that specific!

Even in most areas in which we can generalise there are plenty of exceptions that prove the rule (or quite the opposite!). A good example is that low NFB or even no NFB are thought to give better sound and whilst this is generally true it is also very difficult to design such things in such a way that gross measurable defects don't spoil the whole shebang and dominate the sound. NFB is the most powerful tool in analogue electronics and is what prevents the average amplifier from having say 10% THD! To get say <0.1% THD with no NFB is not easy but can be worth it.
On the other hand I have heard very high NFB amps which seem to do all the low NFB stuff! Go figure!

 

[mansr]

Steve, it's irrelevant what I believe.

I was just making the point that it appears illogical, to me, that recording studios who know far more than me would buy it if such was not the case.

Recording studios, like everybody, have limited budgets.