Do you need to be discrete?
- Thread starter BlueEyes
- Start date
Cereal Killer
432
Being discrete is better.
Why Raj?
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Wow a thread about something "electrical" that actually matters!
It's a huge subject with more caveats than you can shake a stick at but when done optimally discrete is better.
This is discrete V monolithic (IC's) and covers a much wider area than just op amps but they are by far the most common "discrete V IC's" situation we see in hi fi.
It's a huge subject with more caveats than you can shake a stick at but when done optimally discrete is better.
This is discrete V monolithic (IC's) and covers a much wider area than just op amps but they are by far the most common "discrete V IC's" situation we see in hi fi.
Why are op amps still used in high end hifi if discrete sound better?
Forgive my clumsy rhetoric I have no knowledge on this subject.
There is so much "snake - oil" surrounding what is a hobby for some but a professional tool for others.
Have ATC just introduced such for the fun of it and if not why do all high-end amplifiers in hifi not use such or is the difference so marginal as to not warrant the additional cost in manufacture, and, would you spot the difference if you didn't know?
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Good discrete circuitry is vastly more expensive and vastly more difficult to do than op amps. You can get very good results using op amps but to get better still by going discrete is a big undertaking. IME op amps limit the sound-staging, spatial and timbrel abilities compared to the very best discrete circuitry. Op amp circuitry is almost always high feedback.
"snake oil" well yes most of what you read about hi fi is snake oil, bollox and lies basically... apart from what I say of course!
This thread is a prime example. This is a very important and real subject and it's getting very little attention. If it was about something that makes zero difference and attracts only idiots, like mains cables, it would run and run!
mansr
Objectionist
As a blanket statement, none. A specific discrete design can be better than a specific IC, and vice versa, for a specific application.
The proper question to ask is, when is one design approach better than the other? What are the strengths and weaknesses of each?
Starting with discretes, an obvious advantage is the possibility to build something with properties not available in an IC. Now there are a staggering number of different ICs to choose from, so in practice just about anything imaginable does exist. Certainly for audio applications, it is rare to have requirements so unique that an off-the-shelf IC cannot be found to do the job.
Finding advantages for ICs is not difficult. Their small size means more elaborate circuits are feasible, should this be of benefit. The manufacturing process inherently gives much better matching of components than is (easily) possible with discretes. Moreover, in an IC each transistor can be tailored to its function, while with discrete parts the designer is stuck with whatever is available to buy.
Ultimately, of course, what matters is how well the finished product performs and at what cost. Both approaches can deliver vanishingly low noise and distortion, so the choice will have to be determined by other factors.
Nothing political about it! The thing is that it's like asking what's better, fwd or rwd cars? There are good examples and dogs of both.
I accept I'm a bit dumb but whilst I take on board the above, and sometimes you need to know the answer to ask the question, those making amps whether inside or outside speakers want to sell them.
If it is the case, please correct me if otherwise, that most amps that are sold to you and I in a domestic hifi setting use op - amps is it because of cost?
ATC have incorporated discrete in their high end 50SE and 100SE is this the way forward for optimum preformance at this price level with a view to such approach eventually cascading down to lesser priced amps?
Thanks for your opinion Arkless.
If it is the case, please correct me if otherwise, that most amps that are sold to you and I in a domestic hifi setting use op - amps is it because of cost?
ATC have incorporated discrete in their high end 50SE and 100SE is this the way forward for optimum preformance at this price level with a view to such approach eventually cascading down to lesser priced amps?
Thanks for your opinion Arkless.
Steve, you've hit a nerve!
IMO just as the only turntable worth buying is idler so the only car worth buying is rear drive.
Well, there's the answer for discrete vs op amps then!
You wouldn't have given me tuppence for my rwd Jag this winter when there was an inch of snow and it took 45 minutes for me to do the 1/4 mile to the end of the street.
My little car has similar problems in similar conditions but we still both made the right decision.
chartz
If it’s broke fix it!
It was once fashionable to say that op-amps were bad for audio in audiophile circles.
I thought this was over since the silly HDAM Marantz pathetic attempt at finding something better.
Op-amps have been perfectly adequate for 40 years.
That is not saying discrete is bad!
I love my EL34 valves and my 3055 transistors too.
I thought this was over since the silly HDAM Marantz pathetic attempt at finding something better.
Op-amps have been perfectly adequate for 40 years.
That is not saying discrete is bad!
I love my EL34 valves and my 3055 transistors too.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
Long story short, with discrete components you build a circuit to do anything in any circumstances, if you have unlimited budget and knowledge, with opamps you can get very close to the same versatility and specificity with an off the shelf part and a few supporting components.
As jez says though, your opamp circuit will be feedback heavy and theres no getting round the second order effects which may or may not be audible.
In most cases itll be a cost or marketing based decision, not a sound quality one.
As jez says though, your opamp circuit will be feedback heavy and theres no getting round the second order effects which may or may not be audible.
In most cases itll be a cost or marketing based decision, not a sound quality one.