I don't use this argument as it has been done to death. I prefer to say that democracy is a process not an outcome. It is a self-perpetuating process which ensures that we still have a vote in the future.
Well, 2 people here have suggested that you have been insulting. That it is inferred should be enough. But you rebutted both.
Enjoy your thread.
You are Gordon Brown and I claim my £5.
Erm, not offended, but fed up really.
Me too. The only thing that could possibly be more worrisome would be war, civil unrest or myself or someone close to me having a life-threatening illness.
This has been dragging on for nearly 3 and a half years and I'm fed up. I want it to stop. I wish it had never started. A no deal Brexit would certainly not be the end of this madness, it would be the start of more madness.
I have helped my wife apply for Irish nationality. Her job is dependent on frictionless supply chains and zero tariffs. We are both dependent on her income, more so than on mine.
Our first choice would be to stay in this country but being able to up sticks would be a very good second choice if the shit hits the fan.
I feel sorry for those who would be denied this option.
There are levels of fed up. What's yours?
i'm surprised you're able to make any inference at all. i still don't understand what the central point is and the OP still hasn't answered a basic question i posed.
i'm surprised you're able to make any inference at all. i still don't understand what the central point is and the OP still hasn't answered a basic question i posed.
I think Steven is referring to the idea that things might get so bad that the bulk of the electorate becomes open to more radical ideas from the left and so such "disasters" end up being a good thing because it allows a fundamental transformation of socitey that would otherwise be impossible to achieve.
Erm, not offended, but fed up really.
Once the semi-literate yet financially-succesful baby boomers have popped their clogs things will he different but that is going to take another 5 to 10.years at least.
This definitely is its own paragraph. I infer that baby boomers are brexiteers and that they are stupid.
It has been answered and no, it is not an attack on the left but crises present opportunities for those with the most radical of ideas.
i don't think radical ideas are the key here, but the people with money/power to push their ideas in disaster contexts. again, naomi klein has written an excellent historical account of it. well worth reading if this interests you.
What agenda would that be?
I dont have the statistics at hand and it is too early in the day to use Google but stereotyping may seem unjust because there are always exceptions. However, there is a graph which shows the leave vote rising with age and a cut-off between majority remain and majority leave at age 45 to 50. This seems terribly ageist but it isn't.
It's a question of causation or correlation with the latter winning out.
It would seem that the causation is education.
If you have a degree you are more likely, although it is not certain, that yiu would have voted remain. Indeed, 68% of graduates did so.
Before I stoke even more moral outrage on your part, that leaves the 32% to include your friends.
There is a continuum extending downwards through the levels of educational attainment.
The generation of my father could leave school at 15 with nothing and most did. My father left at 16 with 5 O Levels. In his day he was comparatively well educated. He voted to leave but not for no deal.
Approximately 10% of his generation have degrees.
For my generation it is 20%.
For my wife, who is an early millenial it is 40% rising to nearly 50%.
Liverpool is a city which suffered heavily from de-industrialisation during the recessions at the beginning and end of the 80s. If it followed the trend of other Northern cities similarly afflicted it would have voted to leave.
But it didn't, it voted to remain. By this, and before you tell me that you know four Liverpudlians who voted to leave, I mean that a majority voted to remain and there were still Liverpudlians who voted to leave but they were a minority.
The question is why?
One strong causal factor is the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 when the Sun newspaper blamed the Liverpool fans for it and deflected the blame away from the police. As a result the Sun is widely boycotted in Liverpool.
Sun readers tend to.... (I'm being as careful.as I can here, I know that you finger is twitching on the moral outrage trigger. Statistics are dodgy and they lead to stereotyping. Facts have alternatives and all opinions are equally valid and all that, even the ones that the earth is flat and the moon made of Blue Stilton) Sun readers tend be leave voters because the owner instructs them to, an owner with a big ego, a bigger offshore trust and a dislike of Brussels because they treat him with the contempt he deserves unlike those in No 10 who have to do as he tells them if they want to win the next election.
The Express at the time was owned by Richard Desmond, another tax dodger with assets in an offshore shell company of that name. He sold it to Trinity Group who own the Mirror, a remain paper editorially, after 2016.
The Express continues to be pro-leave because changing its editorial stance now would be suicide. Its readership is mainly the cognitive dissonance-addled elderly. Although the newspaper no longer tells the utter porkies it once did under Desmond, the editors know that the lies can't be simply untold as they are etched in the minds of their readership.
The Daily Mail once supported Hitler. It hasn't really looked back since. Enough said there...
The Telegraph, owned by tax-dodging brothers, the Barclays.
I believe the Telegraph may be the actual source of the unreferenced fake Lisbon Treaty (the 2020 one not the 2009 one) which has been copied and pasted ad infinitum on FB.
I am going to stick my head above the parapet and say that the less well educated you are and the older you are, the more likely you are to read the shit in these four so-called newspapers.
I rarely read printed newspapers. I read the Guardian, online, the New European, the Beeb and the Independent mainly, plus I have the Huffpost app on my phone.
I don't read the Canary.
Have you seen how these people write on FB?
When they are not parroting slogans or copying and pasting unsourced and unreferenced shite they are rambling incoherently without punctuation.
What they lack in ability to think critically and order their thoughts in a coherent manner they make up for with enthusiasm which is expressed by leaving the caps lock on.
Unfortunately people stereotype themselves. I don't need to do it.
I think Steven is referring to the idea that things might get so bad that the bulk of the electorate becomes open to more radical ideas from the left and so such "disasters" end up being a good thing because it allows a fundamental transformation of socitey that would otherwise be impossible to achieve.