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Disaster socialism and disaster capitalism - opposite sides of the same coin

Well, 2 people here have suggested that you have been insulting. That it is inferred should be enough. But you rebutted both.

Enjoy your thread.
 
I don't use this argument as it has been done to death. I prefer to say that democracy is a process not an outcome. It is a self-perpetuating process which ensures that we still have a vote in the future.

Alas, it has been "done to death" because it is sadly true. In the UK you only have to look at newspapers (sic) like the Daily Mail, etc, to see examples. And the 'short, sharp shallow' nature of the most 'popular' BBC news/politics programmes fails to dig into issues and, instead, focuses on 'personality perceptions'. To give credit, the *documentaries* on the BBC R4/WS can often be much better. But don't get the same attention.

The real change, though, has been the shift from such 'open' forms of media behaviour to the 'closed group' targetted and funded propaganda facilitated by FarceBook, etc. This is more insidious because it often happens out of scutiny.

In effect it represents a new form of nonlinear feedback affecting the behaviour of the political/social system in a way we haven't been able to take into account. And may find difficult to deal with whilst it remains 'closed group'.
 
Well, 2 people here have suggested that you have been insulting. That it is inferred should be enough. But you rebutted both.

Enjoy your thread.

It is often a tactic to feign offence in order to play the admin.

I am glad to see that this tactic, if it has been deployed, has failed.

Trends exist and people buck them, including me.

Nobody on this thread has shown any signs of being semi-literate but on FB they are plentiful. FB is more representative of the population as a whole even if the nature of discourse on social media in general tends to polarise viewpoints to an extent that is not representative of the general population.

Remember that this whole feigned offence thing was triggered by my referring to the Sun newspaper as the Scum.

And no, I do not believe that the inference you cite was sincere.
 
Erm, not offended, but fed up really.

Once the semi-literate yet financially-succesful baby boomers have popped their clogs things will he different but that is going to take another 5 to 10.years at least.

This definitely is its own paragraph. I infer that baby boomers are brexiteers and that they are stupid.
 
You are Gordon Brown and I claim my £5.

i'm surprised you're able to make any inference at all. i still don't understand what the central point is and the OP still hasn't answered a basic question i posed.
 
Erm, not offended, but fed up really.

Me too. The only thing that could possibly be more worrisome would be war, civil unrest or myself or someone close to me having a life-threatening illness.

This has been dragging on for nearly 3 and a half years and I'm fed up. I want it to stop. I wish it had never started. A no deal Brexit would certainly not be the end of this madness, it would be the start of more madness.

I have helped my wife apply for Irish nationality. Her job is dependent on frictionless supply chains and zero tariffs. We are both dependent on her income, more so than on mine.

Our first choice would be to stay in this country but being able to up sticks would be a very good second choice if the shit hits the fan.

I feel sorry for those who would be denied this option.

There are levels of fed up. What's yours?
 
Me too. The only thing that could possibly be more worrisome would be war, civil unrest or myself or someone close to me having a life-threatening illness.

This has been dragging on for nearly 3 and a half years and I'm fed up. I want it to stop. I wish it had never started. A no deal Brexit would certainly not be the end of this madness, it would be the start of more madness.

I have helped my wife apply for Irish nationality. Her job is dependent on frictionless supply chains and zero tariffs. We are both dependent on her income, more so than on mine.

Our first choice would be to stay in this country but being able to up sticks would be a very good second choice if the shit hits the fan.

I feel sorry for those who would be denied this option.

There are levels of fed up. What's yours?

It's small potatoes....in forum world, I am fed up of this one. It's no big deal, obviously. I can just take another sabbatical from it. In fact...
 
i'm surprised you're able to make any inference at all. i still don't understand what the central point is and the OP still hasn't answered a basic question i posed.

It has been answered and no, it is not an attack on the left but crises present opportunities for those with the most radical of ideas.
 
i'm surprised you're able to make any inference at all. i still don't understand what the central point is and the OP still hasn't answered a basic question i posed.

I think Steven is referring to the idea that things might get so bad that the bulk of the electorate becomes open to more radical ideas from the left and so such "disasters" end up being a good thing because it allows a fundamental transformation of socitey that would otherwise be impossible to achieve.
 
I think Steven is referring to the idea that things might get so bad that the bulk of the electorate becomes open to more radical ideas from the left and so such "disasters" end up being a good thing because it allows a fundamental transformation of socitey that would otherwise be impossible to achieve.

That's one way of looking at it. I also said that a lurch to the far right was more likely.

I also think that the likely level of damage and suffering is a cost too high to bear in pursuit of Utopia.
 
Congratulations on returning to pfm and starting off from page 1 on a discussion that has been rambling on for 3 years.
 
Erm, not offended, but fed up really.

Once the semi-literate yet financially-succesful baby boomers have popped their clogs things will he different but that is going to take another 5 to 10.years at least.

This definitely is its own paragraph. I infer that baby boomers are brexiteers and that they are stupid.

Demographics and trends are what they are.

I am over 50. That puts me in the leave demographic, just about. However, I would not be outraged if a millenial pointed out this fact.

I wouldn't feign outrage either.
 
It has been answered and no, it is not an attack on the left but crises present opportunities for those with the most radical of ideas.

i don't think radical ideas are the key here, but the people with money/power to push their ideas in disaster contexts. again, naomi klein has written an excellent historical account of it. well worth reading if this interests you.
 
i don't think radical ideas are the key here, but the people with money/power to push their ideas in disaster contexts. again, naomi klein has written an excellent historical account of it. well worth reading if this interests you.

I have seen the book. I would like to read it in conjunction with William Rees-Mogg's book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/067162735X/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

There is a fairly long synopsis of it in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...-jacob-rees-mogg-willam-predicts-brexit-plans
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
What agenda would that be?

I dont have the statistics at hand and it is too early in the day to use Google but stereotyping may seem unjust because there are always exceptions. However, there is a graph which shows the leave vote rising with age and a cut-off between majority remain and majority leave at age 45 to 50. This seems terribly ageist but it isn't.

It's a question of causation or correlation with the latter winning out.

It would seem that the causation is education.

If you have a degree you are more likely, although it is not certain, that yiu would have voted remain. Indeed, 68% of graduates did so.

Before I stoke even more moral outrage on your part, that leaves the 32% to include your friends.

There is a continuum extending downwards through the levels of educational attainment.

The generation of my father could leave school at 15 with nothing and most did. My father left at 16 with 5 O Levels. In his day he was comparatively well educated. He voted to leave but not for no deal.

Approximately 10% of his generation have degrees.

For my generation it is 20%.

For my wife, who is an early millenial it is 40% rising to nearly 50%.

Liverpool is a city which suffered heavily from de-industrialisation during the recessions at the beginning and end of the 80s. If it followed the trend of other Northern cities similarly afflicted it would have voted to leave.

But it didn't, it voted to remain. By this, and before you tell me that you know four Liverpudlians who voted to leave, I mean that a majority voted to remain and there were still Liverpudlians who voted to leave but they were a minority.

The question is why?

One strong causal factor is the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 when the Sun newspaper blamed the Liverpool fans for it and deflected the blame away from the police. As a result the Sun is widely boycotted in Liverpool.

Sun readers tend to.... (I'm being as careful.as I can here, I know that you finger is twitching on the moral outrage trigger. Statistics are dodgy and they lead to stereotyping. Facts have alternatives and all opinions are equally valid and all that, even the ones that the earth is flat and the moon made of Blue Stilton) Sun readers tend be leave voters because the owner instructs them to, an owner with a big ego, a bigger offshore trust and a dislike of Brussels because they treat him with the contempt he deserves unlike those in No 10 who have to do as he tells them if they want to win the next election.

The Express at the time was owned by Richard Desmond, another tax dodger with assets in an offshore shell company of that name. He sold it to Trinity Group who own the Mirror, a remain paper editorially, after 2016.

The Express continues to be pro-leave because changing its editorial stance now would be suicide. Its readership is mainly the cognitive dissonance-addled elderly. Although the newspaper no longer tells the utter porkies it once did under Desmond, the editors know that the lies can't be simply untold as they are etched in the minds of their readership.

The Daily Mail once supported Hitler. It hasn't really looked back since. Enough said there...

The Telegraph, owned by tax-dodging brothers, the Barclays.

I believe the Telegraph may be the actual source of the unreferenced fake Lisbon Treaty (the 2020 one not the 2009 one) which has been copied and pasted ad infinitum on FB.

I am going to stick my head above the parapet and say that the less well educated you are and the older you are, the more likely you are to read the shit in these four so-called newspapers.

I rarely read printed newspapers. I read the Guardian, online, the New European, the Beeb and the Independent mainly, plus I have the Huffpost app on my phone.

I don't read the Canary.

From this we can ascertain the following:

Steven is obsessed about the traditional newspaper press. Has anybody told him nobody reads them these days?

He likes to use 50 words when 5 would suffice.

The spacebar on his keyboard works.

Ray
 
^^ I understand how the right selectively uses religion to further reactionary policy. What I don't understand is how people who profess to be genuinely religious can be so mean.
 
Have you seen how these people write on FB?

When they are not parroting slogans or copying and pasting unsourced and unreferenced shite they are rambling incoherently without punctuation.

What they lack in ability to think critically and order their thoughts in a coherent manner they make up for with enthusiasm which is expressed by leaving the caps lock on.

Unfortunately people stereotype themselves. I don't need to do it.

Thanks Steven for trying to explain your earlier comments. Not exactly an apology but then again you may not be the apologising kind.

I don't go on FB for the reasons you mention but please remember this is PF so no reason for you to act as if you are on FB.

Ray
 
Steven wrote:

Perhaps younger generations are now sufficiently well informed despite Gove's best efforts.

I am lucky enough to work with a fair number of very talented people in their early to mid-twenties. I also have four children/step-children in this age group. They don't seem to take a huge interest in our structures of governance and I think they would be puzzled if you asked them how many MPs sit in the Commons or what is the role of the Lords.

For sure, they can become animated over politics which is great to see but its usually only when it affects them which is fair enough as most of us are the same.

Ray
 
I think Steven is referring to the idea that things might get so bad that the bulk of the electorate becomes open to more radical ideas from the left and so such "disasters" end up being a good thing because it allows a fundamental transformation of socitey that would otherwise be impossible to achieve.

That's certainly how it went in Germany in the 1930s.
 
Perhaps it isn't some kind of conspiracy, perhaps Corbyn is a just a stubborn old goat but the fact remains that he is blocking the prospect of a caretaker government because not enough MPs will support him.

You can blame each and every one of those MPs for their silliness or you can take a step back and see the picture for what it is. In order to.be able to gain a cross-party majority you need to be perceived as either neutral or your politics need to be somewhere near the middle ground so as to bring everyone together from both sides.

A decidedly left-wing government may be much needed in the UK, I'm not going to contest that at this point but it would need a mandate from the people in a general election. It would be good for Corbyn's chances to become PM after a GE if he had had a shot at it beforehand as a caretaker PM.

However I put the odds of him being PM after a GE being the same, whether he gets to be the caretaker PM first or not, because whilst a successful caretaker premiership would increase his chances of winning a GE, those increased chances are offset by the likelihood of him failing to be elected by MPs to be caretaker in the first place.

Moreover, if he does continue to insist that only he can lead a caretaker government, on the basis of perceived entitlement for being official leader of the opposition and he fails to become caretaker PM due to.lack of support, this could harm his chances of winning a GE.

It would, of course depend on whether the UK gets an A50 extension. If it does, (and I believe this to be the more likely scenario) Johnson is the most likely winner and we have to suffer 5 years of an ultra right-wing government following a crash-out.

Even if Johnson does not campaign on a no-deal ticket as he is now suggesting following pressure from about 50 Tory MPs, it is unlikely that he will shift his position enough to accommodate the EU 27. The ensuing negotiations will therefore be a sham as they are now.

If for some reason the EU does not grant an A50 extension, either because Johnson has managed to scupper it or because it is vetoed, in the ensuing chaos and in a GE following a crash-out, Corbyn's chances of winning will increase steadily as the effects of no-deal begin to bite.

The optimal time for Corbyn to win would be about 2 months after the crash out at peak chaos. 3 months or more after, flows of goods into and out of our ports may have improved somewhat, perhaps back to 70% of pre-Brexit levels. Whilst this would hardly be a raging success for Johnson's junta, he could spin it with the more gullible members of the electorate to see it as one.

In summary, Corbyn's chances are maximised by a GE 2 months after a crash out. That is a very narrow theoretical window of opportunity indeed.

Is this what Milne is banking on?

I hope I have somehow managed to answer Vuk's question. Corbyn's chances basically come on the back of disaster.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...nt-national-unity-jeremy-corbyn-a9146086.html
 


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