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Disaster socialism and disaster capitalism - opposite sides of the same coin

I admire your post but fear no 6 is the wrong way round for the reason that I think Johnson would be more likely to win an election whereas remain could win a referendum (notwithstanding Facebook/ Cambridge analytica type shenanigans). Obviously I speak as a remainer.
Yes, as I say, room for debate on this point. Another argument in favour of GE then 2R is that it minimises Corbyn's time as caretaker PM, which ought to make it more palatable to his opponents. I do think that a caretaker government led by (e.g.) John Bercow holding power long enough to organise a second referendum is the worst possible option because it plays right into Johnson's "People vs Parliament" narrative.
 
Good thread. Welcome back Steven.

My main worry about putting a GE ahead of a 2nd referendum is that I think it's likely that Boris and his lunatic friends would win a GE and form a disastrous coalition. Even though it would be risky I think a second referendum, even one with hard brexit vs remain would deliver a remain victory.

In short, I don't think Corbyn can come anywhere near winning a GE, and a GE could deliver us a Conservative / Brexit party coalition with 5 more years of Boris as PM.
 
Steven, welcome back, but beware, there be Brexiters here!

PS I’ve noticed you attempting to talk sense on Facebook! A scary job, but someone has to do it. James ex-WigWam owner is very good too, a true master of the logical putdown. I just can’t be bothered and quietly unfriend the few people who spam ugly English nationalist content. Luckily most of my friends are actually well to the left of me, so its only been a couple!

I recently had to block/unfriend my own uncle for telling me to 'grow up' as well as stating that public floggings would be a good thing in the same incoherent and semi-literate post replying to my death penalty referendum analogy.
 
Welcome back Steven. From what you say, you have a fair few ideological compatriots here now. The only task I can see as outstanding is to get you to acknowledge that Corbyn might actually be a Good Thing for the country. We'll work on it... ;)

Not too much has changed, other than the dominance of Brexit and Trump threads. There's a cable thread (mains leads, specifically) smouldering away on Audio but I wouldn't bother. You can pretty much write all the contributions, and attribute them to the usual suspects.

Corbyn may indeed be good for the country.

Unfortunately, electoral and parliamentary mathematics will more likely deliver us an ultra-nationalist right-wing government with him acting as leader of the opposition.

We need pragmatism not ideals.

If you have a choice between a 10% chance of getting 99% of what you want with a 90% chance of getting what you fear the most and an 80% chance of getting 70% of what you want with only a 10% chance of what you fear the most, what choice do you make?
 
Corbyn may indeed be good for the country.

Unfortunately, electoral and parliamentary mathematics will more likely deliver us an ultra-nationalist right-wing government with him acting as leader of the opposition.

We need pragmatism not ideals.

If you have a choice between a 10% chance of getting 99% of what you want with a 90% chance of getting what you fear the most and an 80% chance of getting 70% of what you want with only a 10% chance of what you fear the most, what choice do you make?
I don’t think it’s as stark as you suggest though. What you say owes a fair bit to manipulation by right wing media, IMHO. And the problem with choosing a Labour-lite PM is that you’re just kicking the can town the road. Blair was barely to the left of Thatcher, and the crash of 2008 might have been somewhat mitigated, had he been a bit more inclined to rein in the forces of capitalism in the way Corbyn’s inclinations lie.

We need a radical lurch to the left, or we’ll be right back here again in five more years, even without a Johnson government.
 
I don’t think it’s as stark as you suggest though. What you say owes a fair bit to manipulation by right wing media, IMHO. And the problem with choosing a Labour-lite PM is that you’re just kicking the can town the road. Blair was barely to the left of Thatcher, and the crash of 2008 might have been somewhat mitigated, had he been a bit more inclined to rein in the forces of capitalism in the way Corbyn’s inclinations lie.

We need a radical lurch to the left, or we’ll be right back here again in five more years, even without a Johnson government.

If we remain in the EU or even leave on May's deal tax avoidance via offshore trusts will be finished.

The job will be done.

Whilst you and I might be prepared/happy for a Corbyn government* the electorate as a whole simply isn't.

Yes you can blame that on the Torygraph-Hail-Scum-geriatric Expiss dodgy weather reports/predictions press, for sure but their grip is still strong.

Once the semi-literate yet financially-succesful baby boomers have popped their clogs things will he different but that is going to take another 5 to 10.years at least.

*I agree that Corbyn is not as left wing or as stupid as the former French president François Hollande who brought in a 90% tax band that brought no extra tax revenue into France whatsoever.
 
Sed contra...

My thoughts on the latest twist in the Brexit saga (specifically, Corbyn's plan to table a vote of no confidence to stop No Deal, organise a general election, and campaign for a second referendum). Management summary: keep calm and support the plan.

First, let’s deal with the accusations that Corbyn is “refusing to compromise” and/or “playing political games”:

1. Corbyn’s offer already represents a huge compromise. It’s a significant climb-down from Labour’s ambition to negotiate a soft Brexit. It risks losing Leave voters in Labour seats, and it alienates some of Corbyn’s key allies in the union movement and elsewhere on the left.

2. A general election is coming so political games are inevitable to some extent. For example, the vast majority of Lib-Dem target seats are currently held by the Conservatives (there are only two LD/Lab marginal and I live in one of them) so it makes sense for Jo Swinson to “punch left” and burnish her anti-Corbyn credentials. Also, it would undermine Corbyn’s legitimacy and damage Labour’s electoral prospects if Corbyn were prevented from assuming his natural position as head of a caretaker government, following a successful VoNC. Conversely, leading a caretaker government would immediately make Corbyn appear more "prime ministerial", the one thing his opponents insist he isn't, and would improve Labour's prospects in a general election. In theory it shouldn't matter who leads a caretaker government, but the political reality is different. All party leaders know this and are positioning themselves accordingly. To that extent, all of them are "playing political games", not just Corbyn, as the dominant narrative invites us to believe.

The reality is that – unwritten constitution notwithstanding – there is a natural expectation that the leader of the opposition should have the opportunity to form a government following a successful VoNC. Labour is the single largest opposition party by far, and Corbyn commands the single largest bloc of anti-No Deal, pro second referendum votes by far. Therefore, on any reasonable test, he should lead a caretaker government, the sole aim of which is to prevent no deal and organise a GE/second referendum.

None of the additional objections raised by Swinson, and others, stack up:

1. Corbyn can't control his own MPs.
Firstly this is an exaggeration. In a VoNC, the number of Labour rebels would be in low single figures (Hoey, Stringer, and other lost causes). Secondly it's irrelevant because, even if it were true, it would apply equally to any attempt to form a "government of national unity" led by (e.g.) Kenneth Clarke.

2. Corbyn can't get enough support from rebel Tories and smaller parties.
This is vacuous or, at best, a self-fulfilling prophecy. If there are enough MPs opposed to No Deal, and if preventing it is the absolute priority they claim it is, then there is no *principled* objection to a time-limited caretaker government, led by Corbyn, with the sole aim of stopping No Deal and organising a GE/second referendum. Rather than immediately ruling this out, Swinson should commit to backing Corbyn’s plan to put extra pressure on soft Tories, and/or strive to persuade them that it’s the right thing to do. Similarly, People’s Vote activists should be organising petitions and letter writing campaigns aimed at potential Tory rebels such as Dominic Grieve. Where there's a will, there's a way.

3. Corbyn is "a divisive figure".
That might be true. But again it's irrelevant since, on the "single biggest political issue of the day" Corbyn is now offering exactly what pro-Remain MPs have always wanted, and nothing more. If the issue really is that important, there is no excuse not to take up the offer.

4. Corbyn can't be trusted.
Irrelevant. If Corbyn tries any funny business his caretaker government will immediately fall to a VoNC.

5. Corbyn secretly wants Brexit.
So call his bluff and accept his offer. Also: see 4, above.

6. We want a referendum before a GE.
There's some room for debate here but I see at least four arguments against this:
a. It's more complicated, and takes longer = more chance that things will go wrong.
b. It lacks the clear political legitimacy of immediately calling a GE (in line with convention, following a VoNC).
c. It sets Boris Johnson up nicely for a "People vs Parliament" election, which he might easily win.
d. It stands less chance of carrying the 20+ Labour MPs who opposed a second referendum in the indicative votes.

The last point is important, but few commentators have picked up on it, even though Jo Swinson mentions these MPs in her official reply to Corbyn. Three or four Labour MPs support Brexit, even if that means we leave the EU without a deal; these people are lost causes. A more significant group of, perhaps, 25 Labour MPs (including Lisa Nandy, Caroline Flint) opposed a second referendum in the indicative votes. These MPs aren’t ideological Brexiteers, but they are concerned about the political legitimacy of trying to overturn the referendum result. Corbyn’s proposal (GE first, with Labour campaigning for a second referendum) allows them to reclaim political legitimacy, if Labour secure enough seats to form a (coalition) government. For all the focus on rebel Tories, Change UK and the LDs, it’s important not to forget this important group of Labour MPs, whose support will be critical in a VoNC.

So, stepping back from the detail, Corbyn's plan has clear political legitimacy, and looks like the quickest and cleanest route to prevent no deal, force a GE and (potentially) stop Brexit via a second referendum. If those are your political priorities, there is no principled reason not to support it. The plan might not succeed but it's the best chance we've got.
Our support for the latter part of this is irrelevant, it is down to MPs to sort out what their priorities are & act accordingly. I don't really disagree with any of your points but still feel that rebel Tories will never support a VoNC if Corbyn is to become interim leader. On balance I feel Keir Starmer should probably take the reigns but he is probably too normal for some Corbynites.
 
Steven Toy wrote

‘Yes you can blame that on the Torygraph-Hail-Scum-geriatric Expiss dodgy weather reports/predictions press, for sure but their grip is still strong.

Once the semi-literate yet financially-succesful baby boomers have popped their clogs things will he different but that is going to take another 5 to 10.years at least.’


You were/are obviously popular on PF and I don’t have any problem with your stance on Brexit but using words like scum, geriatric, semi-literate combined with gleefully looking forward to the deaths of the 17,4 million who voted to Leave, is a bit much for your first night back and shows poor form.

In short, stick to FB.

Ray
 
Steven Toy wrote

‘Yes you can blame that on the Torygraph-Hail-Scum-geriatric Expiss dodgy weather reports/predictions press, for sure but their grip is still strong.

Once the semi-literate yet financially-succesful baby boomers have popped their clogs things will he different but that is going to take another 5 to 10.years at least.’


You were/are obviously popular on PF and I don’t have any problem with your stance on Brexit but using words like scum, geriatric, semi-literate combined with gleefully looking forward to the deaths of the 17,4 million who voted to Leave, is a bit much for your first night back and shows poor form.

In short, stick to FB.

Ray
Scum refers to the Sun newspaper not its readers.

17.4 million did not vote for a no-deal Brexit.

The no-dealers tend to be the semi-literate baby boomers.

No-dealers account for roughly a third of those who voted in the referendum and 60% of Leave voters.

Yours is the first angry post on this thread.

No surprises as to the views of its source.

Btw, my Express-reading elderly parents voted to leave but they are utterly horrified by the prospect of no-deal.
 
Echo that nice to see you are still around and kicking Steven. Welcome back. Probably best to avoid posting in the brexit thread :) It is a sink hole with no escape. I have given up on it. Not because of the sensible posters but after going around the gold fish bowl a 100 times it eventually sinks in no facts could swing it. Mind you got some good laughs from the folk I would be on the same page as.

Hey, man.

Welcome back!

Joe
 
The likelihood/prospect of a socialist government coming to power in the wake of economic collapse.

I covered it in the OP.

steven.

naomi klein, with her excellent book "shock doctrine", put the concept of "disaster capitalism" on the map. i've read the book and i can actually see it on my shelves right now. the basic idea is of capitalist forces from wealthy nations taking advantage of a massive crisis in the lesser world to impose milton friedman economics to their benefit -- primarily in the selling off of public assets at a silly low price. best example would be russia after the fall of communism.

one half of what you seem to be suggesting is that the UK right has orchestrated a crisis via brexit with the idea of attempting something comparable in the (predicted) chaotic aftermath. given the cozy situation to begin with, it seems like a pretty big gamble, but it is plausible. the second half, if i understand correctly, is that the left (or "hard" left) is pushing for the same with the anticipation that things will go badly and the problem could then be blamed on capitalism. is that correct? if so, can you provide some supporting material?

my anecdotal understanding of the "hard" left would lead me to suggest that any public or private support for brexit would probably have to do with the principle of regionalism vs. globalism, whether you agree with it or not. i am not expressing my own opinion here, simply trying to offer an educated guess.
 
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The no-dealers tend to be the semi-literate baby boomers

A massive sweeping statement like that may undermine your argument. Deconstructing it you are saying that probably most and certainly at least over half of those in favour of a no deal Brexit have problems with reading and writing.

Hmm, it’s the kind of sweeping statement that sets out to label people and put them into categories without ever considering them as individuals - in other words it’s stereotyping - and plain wrong. To add a bit of perspective, albeit anecdotal, the three people I know who are most in favour of no deal are degree educated and two of them have charted status.

Ray
 
steven.

naomi klein, with her excellent book "shock doctrine", put the concept of "disaster capitalism" on the map. i've read the book and i can actually see it on my shelves right now. the basic idea is of capitalist forces from wealthy nations taking advantage of a massive crisis in the lesser world to impose milton friedman economics to their benefit -- primarily in the selling off of public assets at a silly low price. best example would be russia after the fall of communism.

one half of what you seem to be suggesting is that the UK right has orchestrated a crisis via brexit with the idea of attempting something comparable in the (predicted) chaotic aftermath. given the cozy situation to begin with, it seems like a pretty big gamble, but it is plausible. the second half, if i understand correctly, is that the left (or "hard" left) is pushing for the same with the understanding that things will go badly and the problem could then be blamed on capitalism. is that correct? if so, can you provide some supporting material?

my anecdotal understanding of the "hard" left would lead me to suggest that any public or private support for brexit would probably have to do with the principle of regionalism vs. globalism, whether you agree with it or not. i am not expressing my own opinion here, simply trying to offer an educated guess.

The Shock Doctrine (2009) Documentary

 
Yes you can blame that on the Torygraph-Hail-Scum-geriatric Expiss dodgy weather reports/predictions press, for sure but their grip is still strong.

Once the semi-literate yet financially-succesful baby boomers have popped their clogs things will he different but that is going to take another 5 to 10.years at least.

Well, it was a promising start with a clever and thought provoking thread title. There are certainly unsavoury aspects to both of the political ideologies you cite which might have made for a good discussion.

By page two page however you are already coming out with clap trap like this and your real agenda is out in the open.

Thanks Vuk has got it back on track.

Ray
 


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