Denafrips Ares II thoughts

[flutteringwow]

The GAIA DDC makes a big difference to the relatively modestly priced Ares II @ £800

I would say the GAIA DDC is along the lines of the audio equivalent of the Hubble telescope fix for digital signals feeding DAC's The GAIA DDC enables DAC's to breathe freely and the result is that everything simply snaps into focus

My inquisitive mind wonders if Denafrips designed this product as an add on for their DAC's, almost as if the DAC's are backwards engineered slightly so that purchasing the secondary product 'fixes' the issue. What is it like when using it with other DAC's? and what network device are you using to get these results?

Id be keen to try one on my Aqua La Voce S3 R2R discreet DAC with a good transport like an Innuos Zen.

 

[DimitryZ]

I came across this and wonder what are the limitations at this low price:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B08HN3VSF8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_75RW28C9Y2AJS0YHH9BH

 

[Heckyman]

My inquisitive mind wonders if Denafrips designed this product as an add on for their DAC's, almost as if the DAC's are backwards engineered slightly so that purchasing the secondary product 'fixes' the issue. What is it like when using it with other DAC's? and what network device are you using to get these results?

Id be keen to try one on my Aqua La Voce S3 R2R discreet DAC with a good transport like an Innuos Zen.

^ I don't think so. According to Alvin at Vinishine/Denafrips, the DDCs are primarily aimed at improving the output from RPis, PCs, NUCs etc. (Denafrips don't produce a server/streamer and a lot of Asian audiophiles use a computer source). He certainly does not advocate spending more on a DDC than on a DAC!

Having used a Denafrips DDC with the Aqua La Voce S3 (and other DACs, not Denafrips but DACs with similar USB receivers), I reckon the uplift would be at least as much with the Aqua as with the Denafrips (a possible exception being if you used the unique clock sync feature of Denafrips DDC + Terminator 2/plus DAC).

 

[flutteringwow]

^ I don't think so. According to Alvin at Vinishine/Denafrips, the DDCs are primarily aimed at improving the output from RPis, PCs, NUCs etc. (Denafrips don't produce a server/streamer and a lot of Asian audiophiles use a computer source). He certainly does not advocate spending more on a DDC than on a DAC!

Having used a Denafrips DDC with the Aqua La Voce S3 (and other DACs, not Denafrips but DACs with similar USB receivers), I reckon the uplift would be at least as much with the Aqua as with the Denafrips (a possible exception being if you used the unique clock sync feature of Denafrips DDC + Terminator 2/plus DAC).

I don't actually use USB from my streamer to my DAC, as I have never found USB to sound very good in comparison to coax. So I guess these re-clockers would 'fix' that, but then again, Coaxial was essentially free!

Im all about advancements in digital audio, as it's still not perfect on any level, it seems the cost of getting it 'better' is moving into big dollar with one box to fix another box, or deal with the inadequacies of another box. I can understand needing something when using Pi's and PC's as I've never heard those sound good either compared to designated streamers, the digital hash on the one I sat and listened to was immense.

At least some companies are now putting decent power supplies into a single box, maybe in time, they will with these re-clockers at a more reasonable inclusive cost?

Did you run your reclocker from a good quality network player/streamer?

 

[Heckyman]

Did you run your reclocker from a good quality network player/streamer?

Just an Allo USBridge (with DC3 LPSU) used as an endpoint (with EtherRegen switch + Farad LPSU). Then by chance, I noticed that my new Sony smartphone (using USB Audio Player Pro app) sounded better connected directly than all this audiophile network streaming gear. So I got a new Mac mini M1. It was better than the Allo (and also allowed me to sell my expensive LPSU and ditch the switch too).

I don't hear any "digital hash" from the mini. I have not compared it to streamers from the likes of Innous, SotM, Naim etc. and would be curious to do so if I had the chance. But I feel like I would be wasting a dealers time, having already decided to spend most of my source budget on a good DAC (and just use USB and/or the re-clocker I already own).

 

[flutteringwow]

Just an Allo USBridge (with DC3 LPSU) used as an endpoint (with EtherRegen switch + Farad LPSU). Then by chance, I noticed that my new Sony smartphone (using USB Audio Player Pro app) sounded better connected directly than all this audiophile network streaming gear. So I got a new Mac mini M1. It was better than the Allo (and also allowed me to sell my expensive LPSU and ditch the switch too).

I don't hear any "digital hash" from the mini. I have not compared it to streamers from the likes of Innous, SotM, Naim etc. and would be curious to do so if I had the chance. But I feel like I would be wasting a dealers time, having already decided to spend most of my source budget on a good DAC (and just use USB and/or the re-clocker I already own).

I think now you've got all the cool kit, you may not see huge benefit from a dedicated network player, BUT you never know! You'd be in a good place to try as you have some quality gear. I think my argument lays in whether this reclocker would be beneficial when you already run a quality designated streamer and quality DAC, and also will it make the USB connect better than coaxial (if there is one).

One thing about Apple, as much as many dislike the company, their kit is designed by some of the most qualified experts in the field, the best of the best, so it dosent surprise me that it worked really well.

 

[DimitryZ]

I would gently suggest that all of our high-end DACs already have a high quality DCC built-in, and they all use internal I2S connection to feed the DAC.

It's not an obvious move to simply ignore the internal DCC, buy an external one and run I2S over a longer cable from two boxes. Keep in mind that I2S was designed as a very short distance internal audio data protocol and actually is quite length limited in external use due to latency.

 

[Heckyman]

I would gently suggest that all of our high-end DACs already have a high quality DCC built-in, and they all use internal I2S connection to feed the DAC.

It's not an obvious move to simply ignore the internal DCC, buy an external one and run I2S over a longer cable from two boxes. Keep in mind that I2S was designed as a very short distance internal audio data protocol and actually is quite length limited in external use due to latency.

Yeah, sounds right in theory. Though I don't think it's quite the same type of i2s as that used internally. But I don't have the expertise to debate the inner workings of DACs, unfortunately.

I think my argument lays in whether this reclocker would be beneficial when you already run a quality designated streamer and quality DAC

Good point. It shouldn't be, but hard to know without actually trying specific combinations side by side. And, one may end up spending more on this "quality dedicated streamer"...

I think in the end you just have to pick an approach that suits. For example, I listen to a lot of radio / YouTube etc, it's a pain trying to stream this kind of content between devices over a network, but simple on a device like the Mini. I also like to run upsampling on the computer. And I already had a reclocker, which so far has just about managed to justify its place on the rack...

 

[Musicraft]

My inquisitive mind wonders if Denafrips designed this product as an add on for their DAC's, almost as if the DAC's are backwards engineered slightly so that purchasing the secondary product 'fixes' the issue. What is it like when using it with other DAC's?

Earlier in the thread I did mention that a client who bought the GAIA DDC uses a chip based Esoteric D-02X DAC -

Quick update. On Friday afternoon 04/06/21 I unboxed and used the GAIA DDC with the Ares II DAC and I kid you not when I say the difference the GAIA made was OMG. WOW. Spoke to a client to whom we sold an Esoteric D-02DX DAC (RRP £17500) about the GAIA DDC on Saturday. Sunday our client popped into the store and bought the our demo/display GAIA. Monday afternoon client rang me to say "the GAIA is simply wonderful"

And briefly to add to the above. A few days ago client popped into the store about speakers. Subsequently asked me as "so what's new"

Firstly system played without the GAIA DDC. Then GAIA DDC is bought into play. Clients says immediately responds by saying "what?" Clients shakes his head from side to side for a couple of minutes and then says "I'll have one in black please"

Order placed and our clients DAVE DAC is set to benefit from the qualities of the GAIA DDC

I would say the GAIA DDC is along the lines of the audio equivalent of the Hubble telescope fix for digital signals feeding DAC's The GAIA DDC enables DAC's to breathe freely and the result is that everything simply snaps into focus I think the GAIA DDC should be seriously considered a pre requisite for good quality DAC's

 

[DimitryZ]

Earlier in the thread I did mention that a client who bought the GAIA DDC uses a chip based Esoteric D-02X DAC -

Quick update. On Friday afternoon 04/06/21 I unboxed and used the GAIA DDC with the Ares II DAC and I kid you not when I say the difference the GAIA made was OMG. WOW. Spoke to a client to whom we sold an Esoteric D-02DX DAC (RRP £17500) about the GAIA DDC on Saturday. Sunday our client popped into the store and bought the our demo/display GAIA. Monday afternoon client rang me to say "the GAIA is simply wonderful"

And briefly to add to the above. A few days ago client popped into the store about speakers. Subsequently asked me as "so what's new"

Firstly system played without the GAIA DDC. Then GAIA DDC is bought into play. Clients says immediately responds by saying "what?" Clients shakes his head from side to side for a couple of minutes and then says "I'll have one in black please"

Order placed and our clients DAVE DAC is set to benefit from the qualities of the GAIA DDC

I would say the GAIA DDC is along the lines of the audio equivalent of the Hubble telescope fix for digital signals feeding DAC's The GAIA DDC enables DAC's to breathe freely and the result is that everything simply snaps into focus I think the GAIA DDC should be seriously considered a pre requisite for good quality DAC's

I understand the intent, but above is quite over the top.

I agree that in some cases these devices can improve some DACs. However, all modern audiophile DACs at a price level of $500+ already have an excellent DDC inside, repleat with a femtoclock, LPS and an I2S connection to the DAC - exactly how this protocol was designed to function. It is very difficult to make a case that ignoring this excellent nearby circuitry and using a functionality identical one in an external box connected by a wire is a way to go.

Besides, audio industry went through this phase in the late 90s.

 

[flutteringwow]

Earlier in the thread I did mention that a client who bought the GAIA DDC uses a chip based Esoteric D-02X DAC -

Quick update. On Friday afternoon 04/06/21 I unboxed and used the GAIA DDC with the Ares II DAC and I kid you not when I say the difference the GAIA made was OMG. WOW. Spoke to a client to whom we sold an Esoteric D-02DX DAC (RRP £17500) about the GAIA DDC on Saturday. Sunday our client popped into the store and bought the our demo/display GAIA. Monday afternoon client rang me to say "the GAIA is simply wonderful"

And briefly to add to the above. A few days ago client popped into the store about speakers. Subsequently asked me as "so what's new"

Firstly system played without the GAIA DDC. Then GAIA DDC is bought into play. Clients says immediately responds by saying "what?" Clients shakes his head from side to side for a couple of minutes and then says "I'll have one in black please"

Order placed and our clients DAVE DAC is set to benefit from the qualities of the GAIA DDC

I would say the GAIA DDC is along the lines of the audio equivalent of the Hubble telescope fix for digital signals feeding DAC's The GAIA DDC enables DAC's to breathe freely and the result is that everything simply snaps into focus I think the GAIA DDC should be seriously considered a pre requisite for good quality DAC's

What are the network players being used in these chains?

Im trying to understand the necessity, when if you use coaxial, you don't need any of these USB 'fixing' devices? I think if a £17k DAC needs this then something is wrong somewhere to be honest.

Genuinely interested, as I have zero intention of ever buying one of these to 'try' due to the cost, but appreciate that digital audio needs to get better and this device may well do just that.

Thankfully, more manufacturers are designing units with decent toroidal transformers, which really helps digital reduce its noise and subsequent 'harshness' and just makes it all that much better. I'll try never to own any digital kit with switching power supplies again thats for sure!

 

[Musicraft]

the intent

is to be sincere.

 

[Bob Edwards]

is to be sincere.

I think we all understand that, but the hyperbole employed reduces credibility.

Sorry, but that's reality. And I'm sure you already know that, and are simply engaging in the Linn hyperbole mentioned in a different thread - where Linn claimed the Akito was better than an Ittok.

 

[flutteringwow]

is to be sincere.

Why do you never answer questions? just write 'wow' a lot?

 

[flutteringwow]

I think we all understand that, but the hyperbole employed reduces credibility.

I disagree completely. Excitement shows passion, and relays an emotional response to something, which is welcomed.

However, imo, it does need to come with a bit more to elaborate on it and reasoning for it..answering questions sure helps!

 

[JTC]

Nobody’s yet (AFAICT) addressed the question of whether, for a given ££££, splitting the money between DAC and separate DDC will be better than buying a better single DAC and no DDC…

 

[John Phillips]

Nobody’s yet (AFAICT) addressed the question of whether, for a given ££££, splitting the money between DAC and separate DDC will be better than buying a better single DAC and no DDC…

The only simple answer to that question is that it's best to have one box.

I assert that there's no essential technical advantage (to fix a problem that can't be solved by basic good engineering) in splitting the functions between two boxes.

If you accept that, splitting the functions over two boxes will require the consumer to pay for a share of the extra design, tooling, distribution and other overhead costs of two boxes rather than one. More than likely the two-box solution will therefore be more expensive than one box so the volumes sold will be lower so these non-recurring engineering costs will split over fewer boxes, so exaggerating the disadvantage of two boxes over one.

 

[Amber Audio]

I used to go with the multi box digital front end, as in each device was dedicated to just the 1 job, I think that evolved from using Pre/Power/PSU amplifier stacks over many years, more and more boxes - mono blocks, bi and tri amping speakers.

Now I’ve gone for and will be upgrading to the best one box I can afford. I’ve tried a couple of very expensive external Clocks and was never convinced they offer value for money, the Leo GX was actually a real disappointment and at £8K should be bringing a major uplift to the party.

 

[Salamander]

I can tell you the dCS Rossini clock made a worthwhile improvement when used with the Rossini dac, although at a cost

 

[flutteringwow]

Nobody’s yet (AFAICT) addressed the question of whether, for a given ££££, splitting the money between DAC and separate DDC will be better than buying a better single DAC and no DDC…

I think a lot of that would depend on the source component, using a RPi is not going to yield the same results as an Innous Zenith, therefore the DDC may be required to sort out the crap from the Pi. Imo.

I've had three budget streamers with me this week (Node 2i, Meridian 210, Primare NP5), and all of them sounded far worse than my NAIM ND5XS2 being used as a transport only into an Aqua La Voce S3 R2R.

Musicraft hasnt commented on source.