Coronavirus - the new strain XII
- Thread starter russel
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Yes, there is real polarisation. As I’ve said, anyone who doesn’t agree with you brands you as a Covidiot, conspiracy theorist or selfish. That’s the level of debate. You’d get more in a school playground.
I think the reason why I’m quoting the Daily Mail and the Covid Recovery Group and the likes of The Telegraph and Spectator, is because all the opposition sadly to lockdowns has come from the right. Hardly nobody from the left has come out to challenge it. The very fact that folk talk so openly about lockdowns as if it’s a normal thing to do is quite chilling.
Well from your own POV then you have to figure out why a load of right wing nutcases and sociopaths aren't in favour of lockdowns, sure as shit it has nothing to do with the health of the general public. So what is their motivation to opening everything up and "just gerrin on with it" ?
Seanm
pfm Member
It's a fair point.
mandryka
pfm Member
One remarkable exception was Andy Burnham's alternative proposals to Tier 3 in Manchester. I do not believe this debate can be framed in left/right terms.
Yes that’s true, although I think his opposition was more financial (seemingly over £5m) than actually opposing the Tier 3 measures.
No doubt they have their own self interests. Don’t we all?
Me personally, I worry about jobs and business and mental health, all those unimportant things...
mandryka
pfm Member
He came up with an alternative approach for dealing with the problem in Manchester, which involved leaving the businesses open and boosting trace and test, it may or may not have been misguided given the scale of the problem, I don’t know.
kendo
Prussian bot
mandryka
pfm Member
What you’re seeing here is the attempt to dismiss the radical alternative by labelling them « right wing nutcases » in order to avoid engaging with the problem. Best ignored IMO.
I agreed with what he was saying. You do have to feel for all those businesses who spent a lot of money making their premises Covid secure, only to be told they have to shut again, even though evidence that they were responsible for a significant bulk of infections was patchy to say the least. And if government had got test, track and trace working, we may not be in this mess now.
Greater Manchester has also had to endure restrictions near enough from the very start, with the exception of a few weeks in July. So you can understand his frustrations, not that the government gave a damn for local democracy, as they imposed tier 3 on GM anyhow.
I’m not holding my breath that we’ll escape tier 3 or tier 3+ but I live in hope.
Yes and that’s the problem with the debate. Anyone opposed to lockdowns is a right wing nutcase. It’s a way of shutting down debate. Forget that Sweden, the hotbed of left wing government, took a different approach.
I do agree that this isn’t a left/right issue though, rather like Brexit wasn’t to a lesser extent, hence why many Labour voters opted for it.
Seanm
pfm Member
Right wing:
- Protect the economy, especially the wealth creators
- Don’t build up debt that later generations will have to pay off
- They’d have been dead soon anyway
- Eye watering number of deaths down to people not taking personal responsibility
- Police need to crack down hard on irresponsible people
Left:
- Protect public health to protect the economy; the economy includes workers and renters
- Debt is cheap, load up on it; public equity in businesses in return for bailouts; tax the wealth-extractors
- Everybody counts
- Generous sick pay and other forms of support to encourage compliance
- Support (including massive media love-bombing) for community led initiatives
- Minimal but consistent policing
What we’ve had is various mixtures and flavours of right wing framing, because all our political parties and mainstream media platforms are on the whole right wing.
Seanm
pfm Member
No those people really are loons.
Finally some parliamentary opposition. If only Labour would vote against them. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/11/21/backbench-tories-arms-tougher-tiers/
Bob McC
Living the life of Riley
That left wing Swedish government is now seriously regretting its different approach and changing it to look like everyone else.
mandryka
pfm Member
I know I’m changing the subject but I won’t let that stop me. This one has come up recently and I’d love to explore it more. The claim seems to be being used to say that closing things down very hard is economically the best thing to do, presumably while investing state money in some way into the businesses to make sure they can bounce back (bounce back when?) Do you know if any work has been done to spell out and support the idea, or is it just glib?
Part of the problem with this approach is to do with political reality. I don’t believe that Boris could have driven harder health protecting measures through parliament in September even if the cabinet wanted to, and I think he would have met opposition from left and right. It’s easy to say lock down harder, we’re looking in from the wings, we’re not in the thick of it.
mandryka
pfm Member
Yes but only contingently. They are accidental loons. The idea is not essentially loony - though it may be callous. All options have serious downsides as far as I can see.
I haven't branded you an idiot, I've branded you selfish. Just so as we are clear.
P.S. I take little notice of any of the press as they always have an agenda. What I do take notice of is medical science and my stance is derived from there.
P.P.S. You have bloody nerve accusing me of being selective over what I read or does that only apply to other people?
Well not exactly, they’ve introduced curbs on gatherings of more than eight people, but the bulk of the rest of their approach, advice and common sense, remains.
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