Challenge From Harbeth - Free M40.1 For Those Who Can Identify Amplifier Differences
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Stu_cj "Yes indeed, if the person under test has previously identified significant differences in the comfort of their living room and the test doesn't reveal it then test is wrong or lacking in some respect."
Did you in the comfort of your own living room, hear these differences in blind listening conditions?
I'm also sure I could tell the differences between Linn and Naim amps. When auditioning these just after the release of the Kairn. I chose Naim over Linn. I thought the Linn more articulate and sweeter in the higher frequencies. The Naim a more earthier fuller sound, particularly in the mid-band. But I've never tested these blind.
In the mid-90's, I had the good fortune to share a train journey with Angus McKenzie and his guide dog Simon. Obviously we ended up talking about Hi-Fi. I mentioned my dilemma over picking Linn over Naim, as I liked different aspects about them. He to my great surprise said IIRC, that there were no differences in amplifiers. I thought this astonishing, and coming from someone of his stature and respect in the industry.
To this day I've never tested HI-FI in blind listening conditions. But I'm open minded enough to admit, knowing you are listening to one amplifier maker over another could play a part in how you perceive how something sounds.
Ally
Did you in the comfort of your own living room, hear these differences in blind listening conditions?
I'm also sure I could tell the differences between Linn and Naim amps. When auditioning these just after the release of the Kairn. I chose Naim over Linn. I thought the Linn more articulate and sweeter in the higher frequencies. The Naim a more earthier fuller sound, particularly in the mid-band. But I've never tested these blind.
In the mid-90's, I had the good fortune to share a train journey with Angus McKenzie and his guide dog Simon. Obviously we ended up talking about Hi-Fi. I mentioned my dilemma over picking Linn over Naim, as I liked different aspects about them. He to my great surprise said IIRC, that there were no differences in amplifiers. I thought this astonishing, and coming from someone of his stature and respect in the industry.
To this day I've never tested HI-FI in blind listening conditions. But I'm open minded enough to admit, knowing you are listening to one amplifier maker over another could play a part in how you perceive how something sounds.
Ally
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
Something about screen doors...
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
dave
Plywood King
Jez,
No one here or anywhere else doubts the fact that when amplifiers get closer to perfection their sound differences will converge and ultimately disappear once perfection is achieved one day but that's not what's being argued here. What's being argued is whether all competently designed amplifiers currently in existence and operated within design parameters will sound alike and not be distinguishable in blind tests:
"If, in a controlled experiment with all variables accounted for (incl. differences in frequency reponse and within the power range appropriate to the amps) under instantaneous A-B relay switchover, driving any Harbeth speakers, if you can positively identify an amplifier by sound alone, I will give you, FOC, a pair of brand new Harbeth speakers, up to and including a pair of M40.1 in any veneer you fancy.
I am quite confident that under controlled conditions, these fabled amplifier differences disappear and that I will never be parting with my money!..."
Forgetting tests, do you believe competently designed amplifiers sound the same when operated within their design parameters while playing music? For example, if we demmed a Levinson, Krell, Naim, Meridian and Yamaha amp with matched volume levels and a speaker that did not stress any of these amps do you believe you'd hear a difference between them blind or sighted?
regards,
dave
No one here or anywhere else doubts the fact that when amplifiers get closer to perfection their sound differences will converge and ultimately disappear once perfection is achieved one day but that's not what's being argued here. What's being argued is whether all competently designed amplifiers currently in existence and operated within design parameters will sound alike and not be distinguishable in blind tests:
"If, in a controlled experiment with all variables accounted for (incl. differences in frequency reponse and within the power range appropriate to the amps) under instantaneous A-B relay switchover, driving any Harbeth speakers, if you can positively identify an amplifier by sound alone, I will give you, FOC, a pair of brand new Harbeth speakers, up to and including a pair of M40.1 in any veneer you fancy.
I am quite confident that under controlled conditions, these fabled amplifier differences disappear and that I will never be parting with my money!..."
Forgetting tests, do you believe competently designed amplifiers sound the same when operated within their design parameters while playing music? For example, if we demmed a Levinson, Krell, Naim, Meridian and Yamaha amp with matched volume levels and a speaker that did not stress any of these amps do you believe you'd hear a difference between them blind or sighted?
regards,
dave
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Could all the objectivists let us know what speakers they use at home? And could they issue a challenge similar to Alan Shaws? So if we can tell the difference between two amps on their speakers then we take the speakers home.
Now I'm sure a lot of us are thinking that the objectivists are just using this as an opportunity for anti-valve propaganda. But I'm happy to concur with the Solid State Stalinists for this test. If someone can loan us a 552/300, I will source a Creek 4040 from ebay. Is that a fair comparison?
Now I'm sure a lot of us are thinking that the objectivists are just using this as an opportunity for anti-valve propaganda. But I'm happy to concur with the Solid State Stalinists for this test. If someone can loan us a 552/300, I will source a Creek 4040 from ebay. Is that a fair comparison?
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
No I was meaning I could take the 552/300 and a Creek 4040 along to the objectivists houses. Presuming they agree to give me their speakers if I can tell the difference. Actually I can just use my own Onix 21 if I can source a 552/300.
I don't think Alan Shaw has discriminated against valves per se, so I will use my own hyrbrid valve/mosfets if I am allowed to do the Harbeth test.
I don't think Alan Shaw has discriminated against valves per se, so I will use my own hyrbrid valve/mosfets if I am allowed to do the Harbeth test.
Sorry, the EBU - I was a little disguised in liquor when I wrote that. The EBU does many such tests, mainly for development of future standards.
There have been a few lengthy and rambling posts on this thread that have been more than a little "disguised by liquor"
can someone point me to this test I cant find it online?
a lot of objectivist seam to be basing arguments on test that are just anecdotal to them.
We actually still don't have a suggested mechanism by which seeing amps makes your brain create different sounds each and every time you hear that amp even when you are not thinking about it.
A have still to find an account of a blind ABX that results in a null that does not involve "spot the difference".
Thats because it's so bloody old! try an Audio Anachronistic site but if you find anything it will probably be a fading photocopy, of a photocopy. however those who are fond of quoting it may have readable copies available for the yet to be converted
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
where's my executed plan...
You will be contacted once it has been executed...
which, unfortunately, is therefore after the event (something Mr Shaw appears to have missed)...
_____________________
On this thread there is heated argument (it's not really a debate is it) whether amps can sound different.
On another thread someone is asking about potential amp modifications......
Obviously, there isn't any point in making any modification 'if' amps all sound the same.....
..
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''
On this thread there is heated argument (it's not really a debate is it) whether amps can sound different.
On another thread someone is asking about potential amp modifications......
Obviously, there isn't any point in making any modification 'if' amps all sound the same.....[/QUOTE]
With respect, this is all avoiding the issue. Alan Shaw has placed a direct challenge berore us subjectivists. If we honestly believe that similar amps sound different then why isn't anyone proving him wrong? In this life you either put up or shut up. If no-one is willing to disprove Mr Shaw's assertion then he has every right to point-out that subjectivists don't actually believe their own claims. It really is that simple...we can either show him to be wrong or we can't. End of story.
_____________________
''
On this thread there is heated argument (it's not really a debate is it) whether amps can sound different.
On another thread someone is asking about potential amp modifications......
Obviously, there isn't any point in making any modification 'if' amps all sound the same.....[/QUOTE]
With respect, this is all avoiding the issue. Alan Shaw has placed a direct challenge berore us subjectivists. If we honestly believe that similar amps sound different then why isn't anyone proving him wrong? In this life you either put up or shut up. If no-one is willing to disprove Mr Shaw's assertion then he has every right to point-out that subjectivists don't actually believe their own claims. It really is that simple...we can either show him to be wrong or we can't. End of story.
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
It isn't that simple if the conditions attached are both arbitrary and rigged.
I proposed a blind abx test that would allow me to prove that I could hear differences between two amplifiers level matched, not stressed or clipping and otherwise transparent according to objectivist criteria but this falls short of what Mr Shaw proposes.
The devil is in the detail but if you keep braying you will hopefully drown out such detail.
In post #113 above I said:
I proposed a blind abx test that would allow me to prove that I could hear differences between two amplifiers level matched, not stressed or clipping and otherwise transparent according to objectivist criteria but this falls short of what Mr Shaw proposes.
The devil is in the detail but if you keep braying you will hopefully drown out such detail.
In post #113 above I said:
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
With respect, Mr Shaw can believe what he wants, all amps sound the same, the phases of the moon predict his future, whatever. No one is obliged to 'prove' anything to him (or anyone else). If he really wanted to prove his point he should "put up or shut up" (as you put it) and set up the test himself. As it is, one could just as justifiably claim that objectivists lack belief in their own conviction! If he wants to prove his point he should get on and prove it, rather than expecting others to do it for him (the knife cuts both ways) - 'end of story'.
Having faith in the validity of ones opinion and feeling the need to convince others of the validity of those opinions are two entirely different things. I don't see you offering to prove that all amps sound the same, does that mean that you don't believe its really true?
whatsnext
Naimless
You could just ignore him and post nothing to this thread if what you say above is truely true for you.
Alan does not believe it, it is knowledge, based on many tests. He is putting his money down to make those willing to further test his point. He is a respected manufacturer with a viable business not a bat eared music lover with nothing to lose but the pride in their beliefs.
If the opposite view is held by others and they are willing to test their view/ belief/knowledge, they can. I don't think he is particularly interested in others beliefs, just wanting the vocal ones to "put up or shut up".
I like the way he has stipulated the basic rules but left the hardware to the challengers, this gives less ammunition for the naysayers but has not put them off entirely I see, the ability to hear a switch, his speakers are so rubbish you could not usefully use them or being a music lover means the inability to devise a test being the most delicious examples.
If the opposite view is held by others and they are willing to test their view/ belief/knowledge, they can. I don't think he is particularly interested in others beliefs, just wanting the vocal ones to "put up or shut up".
I like the way he has stipulated the basic rules but left the hardware to the challengers, this gives less ammunition for the naysayers but has not put them off entirely I see, the ability to hear a switch, his speakers are so rubbish you could not usefully use them or being a music lover means the inability to devise a test being the most delicious examples.
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
The switch remains a requirement though for some inexplicable reason. Equally inexplicable is the requirement to get it right 60/100 times, presumably to induce listener fatigue, instead of 18/20 which would still be statistically significant.
This is nothing more than a publicity stunt and a marketing strategy that says spend the bulk of your money on speakers, our speakers.
This is nothing more than a publicity stunt and a marketing strategy that says spend the bulk of your money on speakers, our speakers.
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