Zombie
pfm Member
You can do a lot of organising with the tags GENRE and STYLE instead and add Conductor and Performers and Orchestra as Artist. The biggest prob IMHO is multiple composers per album, but that is quite easliy solved, too.
cdp replacement, nas + streamer initial questions
- Thread starter 1964meb
- Start date
TwoSeventy
pfm Member
I would recommend a good dac and a headless micro PC running jriver and use jremote on the iPhone or iPad to control it. If you need a lot of storage attach a Network Attached Storage box to the PC. I am finding the sound quality through my mdac is excellent via USB (slightly better than optical). I started with a Denon streamer but it wasn't user friendly the control app was so slow and cumbersome. I have heard the Squeezebox via USB is meant to be good but haven't tried this myself. I am using a Lenovo Q180 nettop PC. Very pleased so far.
Edit: pleased with the system but find the PC fan slightly noisy in a very quiet room. My cabinet is open though. I may change the fan on the PC for a quieter one but a fanless PC would be the best option. J river and the jremote are brilliant. I am ripping my CDs via dbpoweramp. You can buy a program called Sonata music server that includes dbpoweramp and a version of jriver into one product. Aimed at classical music enthusiasts but not exclusively.
Edit: pleased with the system but find the PC fan slightly noisy in a very quiet room. My cabinet is open though. I may change the fan on the PC for a quieter one but a fanless PC would be the best option. J river and the jremote are brilliant. I am ripping my CDs via dbpoweramp. You can buy a program called Sonata music server that includes dbpoweramp and a version of jriver into one product. Aimed at classical music enthusiasts but not exclusively.
backwell
pfm Member
I use a Synology NAS box , ripped my cds using db poweramp, I hardwired cat5 through to my hifi where I have a Dell notebook, loaded with JRiver, that plays into a Wyred4Sound dac. It's a lot of work and expense but is very handy for all your digital music. My cd player is not used much now. Sound quality is as good as cd, the dac made a huge improvement to both formats. Your iPad will prove to be such a wonderful interface if you go down the computer route. Good luck with whatever you do but remember to keep the cd player just in case!
Colin L
High-tech low-life
I use a 555. I've no interest whatsoever in comp audio as every set up I've heard bar EMM and Playback Design (both expensive) hardware sound crap. I find getting up and picking a CD from my shelves easy, convenient and totally normal. I still have use of all my faculties and the use of limbs so ****ing about with remote control, burning CDs using the flavour of the month software, pissing about with tags, and running extra unnecessary hardware is not worth the ****eration.
Most of the people I know that use comp audio do so because they can copy and pirate music and build a huge music catalogue they will never listen to.
Maybe it's just me
Most of the people I know that use comp audio do so because they can copy and pirate music and build a huge music catalogue they will never listen to.
Maybe it's just me
I haven't read all of this thread, but here's my experience:
Setting up a streaming system hasn't been straightforward for me. I've had a number of technical problems along the way which soaked up an enormous amount of time. They're now resolved but the system isn't totally reliable - I sometimes have networking problems and my server (which I use instead of a NAS) occasionally falls over. When I used a NAS it also had problems from time to time.
I've been unlucky, but the fact remains that the more tech savvy you are, the less painful it will be.
Ripping CDs is very time consuming. I have around 3000 and it took a long time. I've got the process much more streamlined now though. You need to sort out how you file things and get the tags right. DBPoweramp does the former, the latter is a bit of a learning curve.
Despite the problems, it was worth it. With lots of CDs and multiple systems in a big house it has made my music much more accessible - it's worth it for that alone. If you have only 1 system and a more modest CD collection, I don't think I'd bother.
I've noticed an improvement sound-wise, although my CD players aren't particularly high end by any means (Quad 66 for example).
It does give you access to "other" sources of music as Colin L points out, and you could download vast quantities which you could never listen to. I don't download commercially available stuff, but it's been interesting exploring lossless bootlegs and engaging with bloggers who are digitising their out-of-print vinyl, sometimes very competently. I probably delete 75% of what I download because it turns out to be rubbish and I don't want my music collection to spiral out of control.
I'm sure the technology will move on and make my streamer/server system obsolete, but I hope that the flacs I've created will be usable in whatever systems become available in future. Since they're lossless I can't see how they could become redunsant.
Setting up a streaming system hasn't been straightforward for me. I've had a number of technical problems along the way which soaked up an enormous amount of time. They're now resolved but the system isn't totally reliable - I sometimes have networking problems and my server (which I use instead of a NAS) occasionally falls over. When I used a NAS it also had problems from time to time.
I've been unlucky, but the fact remains that the more tech savvy you are, the less painful it will be.
Ripping CDs is very time consuming. I have around 3000 and it took a long time. I've got the process much more streamlined now though. You need to sort out how you file things and get the tags right. DBPoweramp does the former, the latter is a bit of a learning curve.
Despite the problems, it was worth it. With lots of CDs and multiple systems in a big house it has made my music much more accessible - it's worth it for that alone. If you have only 1 system and a more modest CD collection, I don't think I'd bother.
I've noticed an improvement sound-wise, although my CD players aren't particularly high end by any means (Quad 66 for example).
It does give you access to "other" sources of music as Colin L points out, and you could download vast quantities which you could never listen to. I don't download commercially available stuff, but it's been interesting exploring lossless bootlegs and engaging with bloggers who are digitising their out-of-print vinyl, sometimes very competently. I probably delete 75% of what I download because it turns out to be rubbish and I don't want my music collection to spiral out of control.
I'm sure the technology will move on and make my streamer/server system obsolete, but I hope that the flacs I've created will be usable in whatever systems become available in future. Since they're lossless I can't see how they could become redunsant.
ExtremePie
pfm Member
My 2 pennies:
SBT is as good (actually a little better although there's not much in it) than using my CDP. Since I'm using the inbuilt DAC on the CDP to play the streamed files, its a pretty fair comparison. Whether a megabucks streamer would help any more is debatable; in my case new speakers would probably help more. My personal route map suggestion below:
1/ buy dbPoweramp for ripping the CDS to a hard drive.
2/ set it up (use FLAC level 0 as there's b****r all to be gained from using any higher level of compression in terms of size reduction, but it does increase the load on whatever has to decompress the FLACs later on)
3/ Remember FLAC is lossless at all levels, so please don't ask if there's any inherent loss in SQ
4/ rip a few different types of CDs, like some compliations, a rock, classical, multi disc sets etc. in order to get a feel for how you would like them to be tagged and stored.
5/ It's a pain starting over, so I suggest you fiddle with this stuff at the outset to get it right. dbpoweramp will automatically set up the different folders which you want, depending on what type of disc it is. e.g. Classical may well be stored under the composer, but rock will be stored by the artist. This is your choice though, so it's worthwhile spending a little time to set up the profiles how you'd like them.
6/ Once you've got half a dozen, start to play with the streamer settings (I'll assume you're going to take all the good advice here and get an SBT)
7/ TRy the analogue out on the squeezebox, straight into the preamp. You can I guess actually use it straight into the poweramp, but be careful of volume settings. Personally I run it to my pre.
8/ Use the digital out into a 3rd party DAC if you have one. This makes a huge improvement. Mine is running into the DAC on my Meridian 808.2 CDP and quite frankly I think it performs better than using the CDP transport. I haven't heard other offerings but there's a wealth to choose from for all pockets.
9/ If using an external DAC consider installing something like Triode's 3rd party 'Enhanced Digital Output' or EDO app on the SBT - you'll find it under the settings menu and there's a couple of threads here which discuss it. It enables the SBT to play 24/192 from the computer, although your DAC must be capable of accepting these bit rates. This app switches off the DAC internally in the SBT so don't use it if you intend to use the analogue output on the SBT. It does make a difference.
10/ Get ripping and rip the rest of your collection ;-)
11/ MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL - back up those FLACS, preferably to the cloud somewhere, but definitely back them up. I use Livedrive.
12/ Buy a linear PSU if you wish. I haven't bothered, and the jury seems to be out on how much use it is, although there are some ardent supporters of both POV here.
And don't forget to say how you get on!
SBT is as good (actually a little better although there's not much in it) than using my CDP. Since I'm using the inbuilt DAC on the CDP to play the streamed files, its a pretty fair comparison. Whether a megabucks streamer would help any more is debatable; in my case new speakers would probably help more. My personal route map suggestion below:
1/ buy dbPoweramp for ripping the CDS to a hard drive.
2/ set it up (use FLAC level 0 as there's b****r all to be gained from using any higher level of compression in terms of size reduction, but it does increase the load on whatever has to decompress the FLACs later on)
3/ Remember FLAC is lossless at all levels, so please don't ask if there's any inherent loss in SQ
4/ rip a few different types of CDs, like some compliations, a rock, classical, multi disc sets etc. in order to get a feel for how you would like them to be tagged and stored.
5/ It's a pain starting over, so I suggest you fiddle with this stuff at the outset to get it right. dbpoweramp will automatically set up the different folders which you want, depending on what type of disc it is. e.g. Classical may well be stored under the composer, but rock will be stored by the artist. This is your choice though, so it's worthwhile spending a little time to set up the profiles how you'd like them.
6/ Once you've got half a dozen, start to play with the streamer settings (I'll assume you're going to take all the good advice here and get an SBT)
7/ TRy the analogue out on the squeezebox, straight into the preamp. You can I guess actually use it straight into the poweramp, but be careful of volume settings. Personally I run it to my pre.
8/ Use the digital out into a 3rd party DAC if you have one. This makes a huge improvement. Mine is running into the DAC on my Meridian 808.2 CDP and quite frankly I think it performs better than using the CDP transport. I haven't heard other offerings but there's a wealth to choose from for all pockets.
9/ If using an external DAC consider installing something like Triode's 3rd party 'Enhanced Digital Output' or EDO app on the SBT - you'll find it under the settings menu and there's a couple of threads here which discuss it. It enables the SBT to play 24/192 from the computer, although your DAC must be capable of accepting these bit rates. This app switches off the DAC internally in the SBT so don't use it if you intend to use the analogue output on the SBT. It does make a difference.
10/ Get ripping and rip the rest of your collection ;-)
11/ MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL - back up those FLACS, preferably to the cloud somewhere, but definitely back them up. I use Livedrive.
12/ Buy a linear PSU if you wish. I haven't bothered, and the jury seems to be out on how much use it is, although there are some ardent supporters of both POV here.
And don't forget to say how you get on!
mark.king
pfm Member
Well here's my experience.
Sold my Copland Cdp while I could still get a good price.
Bought synology nas and a mini pc. PC has jriver media center. Foobar worked well but wanted video as well. Used the system like this into my processor amp until the right dac came along. This was the Mac for me. I use gizmo to control on my iPhone.
I have not regretted making the move. I listen to far more music now and because I went down the mini pc route I just added spotify without any pain. The SBT was not for me as just not flexible enough.
Sold my Copland Cdp while I could still get a good price.
Bought synology nas and a mini pc. PC has jriver media center. Foobar worked well but wanted video as well. Used the system like this into my processor amp until the right dac came along. This was the Mac for me. I use gizmo to control on my iPhone.
I have not regretted making the move. I listen to far more music now and because I went down the mini pc route I just added spotify without any pain. The SBT was not for me as just not flexible enough.
1964meb
pfm Member
It used to be so simple? Why is it so Fkg complex now?
Ok this thread seems to say:
Squeezebox touch (sbt)
DAC
NAS
Ok. Does the nas make / spec matter? Do they all have cdp drawers to copy cds onto? Or do I need my cdp or pc to do that?
Which DAC?
Is a musical fidelity new preamp / DAC / streamer thingy worth considering? (+ NAS)
Overload žpttttnrmmmm
Ok this thread seems to say:
Squeezebox touch (sbt)
DAC
NAS
Ok. Does the nas make / spec matter? Do they all have cdp drawers to copy cds onto? Or do I need my cdp or pc to do that?
Which DAC?
Is a musical fidelity new preamp / DAC / streamer thingy worth considering? (+ NAS)
Overload žpttttnrmmmm
lennyw
Still throwing Eephus pitches
If you want to get a SBT, you'll need to make sure LMS (Logitech Media Server) runs on it (the NAS). I believe QNAP and Synology are the two highest rated. When getting one, make sure it has a decent processor and RAM.
You may read a lot of interesting stuff here: http://www.audiostream.com/
You may read a lot of interesting stuff here: http://www.audiostream.com/
RichardH
Bodging pleb
I know the SBT is now out of production, but they still seem fairly available - this may change, so you may want to buy sooner rather than later. From digging around, the only option I found that seems similar (quality & ease of use wise) is the Sonos Connect, though it has no screen, so you will need to use a smartphone app to control it (there is an official one) - or buy their expensive remote control.
A NAS is just a storage device - no ripping facility, so yes, you would use your PC.
I'm desparately trying to remember the name of the company that was offering well thought of prebuilt PCs with all the ripping software set up and ready to go - so it acted as the NAS/media server and ripping device... and I just have - http://www.vortexbox.co.uk - this might be worth looking at instead of a standard NAS.
htm_1968
pfm Member
I use a VortexBox with my Naim NDS and UnitiQute. It is very good for the money. The ripper is excellent, producing rips that appear identical to EAC. The tagger is quite good, but you will probably find that you will need something like MP3 tagger to correctly tag your CDs. I have ripped about 1500 CDs to the VortexBox as FLACs, about 80 of which do not appear on the metadata services (GraceNote etc) so I have to tag them by hand. (MP3 tagger is free and tags far more than MP3s). About another 50 were incorrectly tagged (no artwork, wrong title etc) so that was easy to fix.
I have another NAS full of downloads and cassettes that I have digitized. It requires far more attention than the VortexBox. In the year the VortexBox has been in place it has needed a reboot about twice. Nothing else was needed.
1964meb
pfm Member
You can better the performance of your CDx, but can you afford to? There's a line in the sand out there representing the investment in a DAC needed to better it. You may find that it only takes £350 to improve on it, or you may need to spend £1500.
However, the dismal USB functionality of the Touch makes it rather outdated and expensive. An optimised Windows-based player with internal storage will be cheaper, more versatile (plays any file format, sample rate, bit depth, all internet radio (indeed all of the internet), iPlayer, YouTube, Spotify, Hulu, Vimeo, Napster, Netflix, etc) and just as easy to control remotely. It will also do the ripping and (unlike the SBT) is guaranteed future proof.
This will allow you to spend more of your budget where it matters: on the DAC.
The only answer to your question is: 'suck it and see'. The only way you'll get beyond the welter of contradictory reviewer and forum opinion is to try a few in your own system against the CDx: PM me if you want to borrow something to play with.
I have just moved to a synology NAS, through a router to a Macmini for music only, into a Ayre QB9, I found exdem, it's too expensive new. I think it is as good as the Mk 1 Leema antilla I had before, not better.
A word of warning, everyone says how simple it is and I'm sure it is to them. Being computer illiterate, it has not been easy, at all, for me. It has literally taken about 2 months with a lot of help, to get my head around what I am doing. As a matter of interest, I have used Apple lossless and AIFF and can't convince myself of much difference. The latter has no compression and takes up more file room and should be a bit better, I can't hear it.
I tend to agree with Alan Sircom at HiFi+. Good computer audio is as good as good mid price CD players like the Leema. It is'nt yet and may never be up to the standard of Nagra, Wadia, Zanden etc. It does'nt matter to me, as I could not afford them anyway
A word of warning, everyone says how simple it is and I'm sure it is to them. Being computer illiterate, it has not been easy, at all, for me. It has literally taken about 2 months with a lot of help, to get my head around what I am doing. As a matter of interest, I have used Apple lossless and AIFF and can't convince myself of much difference. The latter has no compression and takes up more file room and should be a bit better, I can't hear it.
I tend to agree with Alan Sircom at HiFi+. Good computer audio is as good as good mid price CD players like the Leema. It is'nt yet and may never be up to the standard of Nagra, Wadia, Zanden etc. It does'nt matter to me, as I could not afford them anyway
Alan Sircom
I dü werds, me
A substantial amount of credit where its due, Andrew Everard at What Hi-Fi has recently written an excellent feature on building a NAS and the potential integration into the system:
http://www.whathifi.com/blog/how-to-build-a-nas-to-store-your-music
If you go a streamed route, this pretty much defines the storage end of the system. You could (and doubtless, will) argue the toss over the relative merits of Asset over Twonky, different brands of HDD or NAS box or even scream how this is ripping people off next to a DIY solution, but its a good solution nonetheless.
I wish I'd written it, and I'm not the only one who thinks that.
http://www.whathifi.com/blog/how-to-build-a-nas-to-store-your-music
If you go a streamed route, this pretty much defines the storage end of the system. You could (and doubtless, will) argue the toss over the relative merits of Asset over Twonky, different brands of HDD or NAS box or even scream how this is ripping people off next to a DIY solution, but its a good solution nonetheless.
I wish I'd written it, and I'm not the only one who thinks that.
Hey, Andrew: welcome to 1998!
There is an argument for network storage of your music library - but only in a whole-house installation. The increase in hard drive capacities has made it much simpler - and cheaper - to spec a 'CD-replacing' system as a standalone that can, if necessary serve other devices in the home.
It only takes one computer to do this job: a NAS plus a PC is one too many, and £600 too expensive.
Computer audio is the same as CD: it's just that the transport is galvanically noisier. If you spend £300 on a DAC, it will be better than a £300 CD player. If you want to better a £1500 player, you will need a £1500 DAC. If you want to match a high-end Nagra, Wadia, Zanden player, you will need a high end DAC. At every level, though, you won't hear what that DAC can do if you attach it to a typical desktop computer: the 'transport' still matters.
There is an argument for network storage of your music library - but only in a whole-house installation. The increase in hard drive capacities has made it much simpler - and cheaper - to spec a 'CD-replacing' system as a standalone that can, if necessary serve other devices in the home.
It only takes one computer to do this job: a NAS plus a PC is one too many, and £600 too expensive.
Computer audio is the same as CD: it's just that the transport is galvanically noisier. If you spend £300 on a DAC, it will be better than a £300 CD player. If you want to better a £1500 player, you will need a £1500 DAC. If you want to match a high-end Nagra, Wadia, Zanden player, you will need a high end DAC. At every level, though, you won't hear what that DAC can do if you attach it to a typical desktop computer: the 'transport' still matters.
Not sure what you mean by dismal? As standard the performance is absent...but with the EDO firmware installed the touch makes an excellent USB source..
ExtremePie
pfm Member
Mike,
Depending on where you are you're more than welcome to come round and see / hear a basic SBT operating.
NAS is simply a hard drive that's always on.
Complex? No, but it can sure seem that way if it's new stuff.
Cheers
Damian
Depending on where you are you're more than welcome to come round and see / hear a basic SBT operating.
NAS is simply a hard drive that's always on.
Complex? No, but it can sure seem that way if it's new stuff.
Cheers
Damian
canyelles
pfm Member
Not certain but I think he means as a usb INPUT device. e.g. connecting a usb stick or usb disk drive.