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Brexit next week: give me a positive effect it will have on my daily life

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Indeed, and once we have emancipated ourselves from the effectively entirely unrepresentative and quite consciously anti-democratic institutions of the EU, it is a debate that we should reinstate. In fact I believe that it should, and now will, go much further than electoral reform. We need now to engage in a debate as to what should naturally follow on from withdrawal from EU centralisation to that characterised by Westminster. <snip>

I guess my reply to the OP would be that the difference that I would like to see and feel is that I will have much more of a stake in the conduct of government, on taxation and expenditure, and that the process would take place at a far more communitarian level than hitherto.
EV, you will be aware that two current cabinet ministers were actually voted* out of office by the electorate barely a month ago, yet were 'reinstated' by dint of some sleight of hand in Number 10.

That feels, to me, orders of magnitude more undemocratic than any EU processes you rail about. The EU has embraced PR systems for its representative democracy elements, something the UK Parliament has resisted for decades. I find your arguments about the 'undemocratic' EU somewhat unconvincing and, in light of recent events, highly ironic.

Your hopes and aspirations for the future direction of 'democracy' in the UK seem, in view of this, somewhat of a triumph of hope over experience.

*one declined to stand for re-election which amounts to the same thing.
 
Yes you are right - It's not much and proof that the remoaning days are over.

That Conservative Central Office party spin line will wear rather thin if (i.e. when) Tory Brexit (inevitably) fails! When those of us who suggested Brexit was likely to be economically damaging and was only ever a power-grab for the hard right are proved correct we have every right to point fingers however we wish! My guess is that time will be well within the next five years...
 
One of the more important ways we can 'make the best of it' is by making sure we learn the lessons 'it' teaches us. Which means not simply rolling over and taking 'it', but repeatedly, pointedly and noisily drawing attention to those lessons, until they sink in with those who need to learn them.
You’re on PFM for god’s sake, not on a government think tank forum.
 
Brexit is a feeling.

Brexit is a thing. You even said so yourself.

One of the more important ways we can 'make the best of it' is by making sure we learn the lessons 'it' teaches us. Which means not simply rolling over and taking 'it', but repeatedly, pointedly and noisily drawing attention to those lessons, until they sink in with those who need to learn them.

Good job that us proles have worthy teachers such as yourself.

Ah the old faith argument rears its head again, the very definition of 'uninformed'. It puts the 'S' in C.H.A.O.S.

Here, Nick, I was thinking about that and it suddenly came to me, like a flash of light from heaven, that C.H.A.O.S could serve as an initialisation of Crazy Hideous Age Of Stupid!

You could even take the full stops out and call it an abbreviation, like CHAOS. Aren't I just something?
 
That Conservative Central Office party spin line will wear rather thin if (i.e. when) Tory Brexit (inevitably) fails! When those of us who suggested Brexit was likely to be economically damaging and was only ever a power-grab for the hard right are proved correct we have every right to point fingers however we wish! My guess is that time will be well within the next five years...

Don`t get your hopes up Tony, they`ll already be lining up people to blame when it all goes wrong, EU being "difficult" over the agreement,Labour dislike of Trump"sabotaging" the trade agreement - need I go on?
 
The European Parliament is demonstrably more democratic than the House of Commons - you only have to compare initial vote shares for the parties with the number of seats they fill to see that. This isn't because it's the European Parliament, just because they chose a voting system that avoids the amplification of tiny majorities that the UK's does. When you look at the voting percentages, it's pretty clear that there was no overwhelming national support for the Conservative government in the most recent election, just as Tony Blair's Labour did not convince the nation back in his 1997 landslide. In both cases, the majority of voters actually cast a vote against both of those options by a considerable margin, but their voices are discounted by a system that was designed for an electorate that numbered in the thousands, not the millions.

I will have much more of a stake in the conduct of government, on taxation and expenditure, and that the process would take place at a far more communitarian level than hitherto.
Thank you for the first actual answer to the original question.

I think you won't get what you're looking at until a major reform in how the UK elects its MPs, as this was always the bigger problem with having your view represented in law-making.

The communitarian idea (which I think is a very good one) was always possible under the EU - in fact most EU member states operate with very strong regional government structures, where a vote in your city or regional election is often something that matters more for your day-to-day life than one for the national parliament.
 
Ah the old faith argument rears its head again, the very definition of 'uninformed'. It puts the 'S' in C.H.A.O.S.

Tell me, doctorf, did you make your medical decisions on faith alone, or were they informed?
Irrelevant rubbish
The OP asks for positive effects that Brexit will have on his day to day life. Can you name some?
More irrelevant crap. I told you I voted remain. What I will not do is moan continually about the perceived consequences.
 
EV, you will be aware that two current cabinet ministers were actually voted* out of office by the electorate barely a month ago, yet were 'reinstated' by dint of some sleight of hand in Number 10.

That feels, to me, orders of magnitude more undemocratic than any EU processes you rail about. The EU has embraced PR systems for its representative democracy elements, something the UK Parliament has resisted for decades. I find your arguments about the 'undemocratic' EU somewhat unconvincing and, in light of recent events, highly ironic...

I am indeed aware of it, in fact it was yours truly here who first drew the forum's attention to this little iniquity.

I would unhesitatingly take issue with your 'orders of magnitude' thing though. However you stretch it, it doesn't come close to EU shenanigans. A couple of ministers, OK, not ideal, but Jesus! - The EU is not averse to parachuting in an entirely new, EU appointed government when it doesn't get its way!
 
Brexit is a thing. You even said so yourself.



Good job that us proles have worthy teachers such as yourself.



Here, Nick, I was thinking about that and it suddenly came to me, like a flash of light from heaven, that C.H.A.O.S could serve as an initialisation of Crazy Hideous Age Of Stupid!

You could even take the full stops out and call it an abbreviation, like CHAOS. Aren't I just something?

you certainly are
 
Brexit is a thing. You even said so yourself.



Good job that us proles have worthy teachers such as yourself.



Here, Nick, I was thinking about that and it suddenly came to me, like a flash of light from heaven, that C.H.A.O.S could serve as an initialisation of Crazy Hideous Age Of Stupid!

You could even take the full stops out and call it an abbreviation, like CHAOS. Aren't I just something?

You're so easy to trigger, EV. Is it because you knowingly voted for it?
 
Don`t get your hopes up Tony, they`ll already be lining up people to blame when it all goes wrong, EU being "difficult" over the agreement,Labour dislike of Trump"sabotaging" the trade agreement - need I go on?

I was thinking the same thing.

There’s no clearly identifiable criterion of failure, so there’s no point at which it can be said to have failed. And any blame won’t stick to the perpetrators.

They’ll get away with it unscathed.
 
I'm putting in a claim to the ppi people to get back all the money we've been conned into paying umpteen MEPs and Euro crats for nothing. Those claim guys are now looking for new work.

The wife wants a new conservatory!
 
The European Parliament is demonstrably more democratic than the House of Commons...

Sure, on paper the EU voting system more representative. But that is, in the world of empiricism and practice, completely meaningless. The EU Parliament is unrepresentative because it is distant, remote and usually completely incomprehensible to the voter. Most voters have no idea who their MEP is, and what views they represent, which is reflected in the turnout figures. It is not democratic per se because there is no EU demos as such, because the EU is a vague, ephemeral notion far more than something that people can culturally, historically and tribally identify with or feel some kind of attachment to. The EU Parliament itself is organised as a number of political groupings from the centre right and the centre left European parties which have traditionally been dominated by the pro-integrationist EPP and S&D. The former has acted as the go-to source of EC Commissioners and Presidents, all of which has placed an overwhelmingly pro-integrationist majority across the EU major institutions. The Parliament itself has relatively limited powers, and is effectively the legislature rather than playing any serious executive role. To most cynics its most notable function is to take part in mind-numbing and utterly incomprehensible committee stages of EC proposed legalising, and to enjoy the benefits of the considerable number of excellent restaurants in Brussels and in its archaic and costly peregrinations to Strasbourg.

you only have to compare initial vote shares for the parties with the number of seats they fill to see that. This isn't because it's the European Parliament, just because they chose a voting system that avoids the amplification of tiny majorities that the UK's does. When you look at the voting percentages, it's pretty clear that there was no overwhelming national support for the Conservative government in the most recent election, just as Tony Blair's Labour did not convince the nation back in his 1997 landslide. In both cases, the majority of voters actually cast a vote against both of those options by a considerable margin, but their voices are discounted by a system that was designed for an electorate that numbered in the thousands, not the millions.

Sure, you can keep comparing it to the UK system, but I think we all agree that the UK system itself needs to be addressed, and hopefully focus will now turn again to that.

The communitarian idea (which I think is a very good one) was always possible under the EU - in fact most EU member states operate with very strong regional government structures, where a vote in your city or regional election is often something that matters more for your day-to-day life than one for the national parliament.

This upheaval of voting to leave the EU, and that of the actual practicalities of doing so, have I believe created the situation in which we will now begin to consider things that would never have been considered before, and perhaps, counterintuitively, thinking in a more traditionally European way. Sure, the EU per se would not have prevented us from doing this, but the EU itself is entirely antithetical to such thinking as its own instincts are always of progressive centralisation, of drawing power to the centre and then disseminating it in the manner of its own choosing.

You speak of what is possible with the EU. What could be possible without the EU? Most of the debate on leaving seems to circle around the economic costs of doing so in terms of the erection of barriers to trade. I would ask you why is it necessary to have the (or an) EU in order to trade freely? The EU is a utopian political project, dedicated to the political, fiscal and monetary union of the formerly independent European states, and it has progressively awarded itself both power and riches towards that end, with any number of Presidential appointments, a 'national' anthem, a supreme court, a central bank and firmly held intentions in the direction of a central treasury, foreign policy and police and armed forces.

None of this empire-building is necessary in any way at all for the sovereign European countries, and indeed any other countries, to be able to effectively and freely trade together, and to cooperate in any number of other ways that they should choose to co-operate in, for example as the UK and France do militarily and in areas of joint foreign policy. One might even posit that the EU is actually obstructive towards the causes of commercial and policy co-operation.
 
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The EU Parliament is unrepresentative because it is distant, remote and usually completely incomprehensible to the voter. Most voters have no idea who their MEP is, and what views they represent, which is reflected in the turnout figures.

Which other elections do you believe it's not the responsibility of the electorate to inform themselves ET?
 
I don't think I said anything of the kind.

Don't be absurd, that's precisely what you have said. If voters don't know who their MEP (or MP for that matter) is, or what they stand for, that is down to them. Of course if they cannot be bothered to inform themselves and prefer to listen to national politicians or twats like Farage deflecting blame away from themsleves - that's much easier.
 
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