Brexit: give me a positive effect... VII

[claire.foxx]

Must admit when I saw Turbot, its often portrayed as part of a dinner where there is an inversion of social norms and roles, especially with regard to masters and slaves, and also often featured “joke” food, made to look like something else. My mind wandered to the section Cena Trimachionis, from Petronius' Satryricon (aka "more stories about food and ****ing") rather than Juvenal. She as a true scholar however gets to the root of it all. Then there is real news of the screws stuff in Suetonius' 12 Caesars.

Julius Caesar attended a banquet at which there were ten starters, ten main courses and numerous desserts. Tiberius auctioned off one turbot, a particular delicacy, which was bought for 30,000 sesterces (several thousand pounds). The Emperor Vitellius was said to dine out three or four times a day, never at a cost of less than 400,000 sesterces a meal. (source)

Its particularly symbolic for a little little fishy swimming in big waters it has no real control of.

 

[ff1d1l]

Anyway, it seems another deal has been struck, this time with Singapore and every deal counts. It’s looking like a majority of nations are happy to continue trading with the UK on the terms already in place through EU membership and the only refusal is the EU bloc. I guess that tells the true story of what is going on.

Brexit: UK and Singapore sign free trade agreement

Source : BBC

Whew. We're alright, then. I was worried for a bit.

 

[lagavullin10y]

Must admit when I saw Turbot, its often portrayed as part of a dinner where there is an inversion of social norms and roles, especially with regard to masters and slaves, and also often featured “joke” food, made to look like something else. My mind wandered to the section Cena Trimachionis, from Petronius' Satryricon (aka "more stories about food and ****ing") rather than Juvenal. She as a true scholar however gets to the root of it all. Then there is real news of the screws stuff in Suetonius' 12 Caesars.

Its particularly symbolic for a little little fishy swimming in big waters it has no real control of.

Mauviel France produces this beautiful Turbotiere - it looks - and is - a kind of coffin:

If I ever retire, I want this as a present. Not that I'll ever use it ...

 

[TheDecameron]

Bojo the clown and Frosty the No-Man probably thought they were Domitian and Caligula, going to be there most of the night necking sea food with occasional trips to the vomitorium for a purge and a confab. Got any oysters Ursula? It would be like something out of a Ken Russel film or something even more lurid by Pasolini. blaaarggghh, pass the fish sauce and throw another civil servant to the lampreys

 

[claire.foxx]

Of Peter Greenway's The Crook, the Thief, the Wife & her Lover...

Crook? Cook! Sorry, Freudian slip.

 

[Heckyman]

What's funny is the more favourable attitude towards a trade deal with the USA than one with the EU.

Both will insist on using their own courts (not UK ones) to settle disputes.

In the case of the USA, corporations can sue the foreign government for loss of earnings caused by a change of government policy. It's one of the main reasons that the EU never finalised a trade deal with the USA, too much opposition in France and Germany (but not the UK).

 

[ff1d1l]

Big picture. Over 20 deals now out of 40 apparently.

What are you going to say if/when all 40 are concluded with no change to current terms and only the EU is refusing? Anything relevant, or just more deflection, barry?

Could you tell us which twenty countries have agreed trade deals already? And the twenty still to agree are?

 

[claire.foxx]

and how they materially improve on what was there before?

 

[Brian]

We will not get the benefits of the single market if we don't meet its obligations.

There will be other trade deals but these will be poor compensation because the countries concerned have smaller economies than the EU and/or are further away.

It's that simple.

Yes, I know all that.

I’m not saying ( and I don’t think anybody is saying ) these deals will fully compensate if that’s what people naively insist is the only acceptable outcome. We have left the EU and we need to do deals with as many countries as we can. Comparing these deals with what has been left behind on leaving the EU ensures the complaining is never going to end but we have to move forward. It’s really that simple.

What I’m interested in is the possibility of lots of these deals being agreed with other countries on the same terms as the EU, leaving just the EU bloc that will not agree anything. It makes the aim of the EU bloc look very much like wishing to ensure the UK fails.

 

[Brian]

Very simple. Even you can follow it Brian.

Political pressure for independence will build. The UK economy will worsen dramatically post-Brexit. Unemployment, civil unrest, poverty and destitution will increase and the Tories will start to worry about their election chances.

As Scotland is painted as a financial liability they will see their chances to cut costs.
More importantly without Scottish MPs the Tories are unlikely to lose a Westminster election ever again. The Tories will be quite happy to sacrifice their “precious” union for long term political power. Jobs a good ‘un and an end to “vassalage”.

Sadly Labour and the non-Tory parts of England will be ****ed but rural Tory voting England won’t care.

You’re in your 60’s, yes?

I’ve been assured seats in Scotland don’t matter in a UK GE, so you might want to think again about that second bit in bold, even though I tend to agree it’s possible you’re correct, some nationalists here do not.

The UK is stronger as a whole, even the tories know that and I doubt they want to be the party in govt during a break up of the UK. I still see no reason why the tories will permit another referendum but we’ll see.

As an aside, why do you think it’s ok to vote to make Scotland poorer even if only for a decade or so? Are you personally insulated from it?

 

[Brian]

Whew. We're alright, then. I was worried for a bit.

Gawd, with voters like you it’s no wonder we’re in trouble.

No, we’re not alright. Keep worrying and I suggest come 2024, if you can remember what you’re worrying about, you make a real effort not to help the tories to a majority.

 

[Colin L]

You’re in your 60’s, yes?

I’ve been assured seats in Scotland don’t matter in a UK GE, so you might want to think again about that second bit in bold, even though I tend to agree it’s possible you’re correct, some nationalists here do not. No you weren't told that. You were told in this current parliament is makes no difference. In another parliament the SNP would be a partner in an anti-Tory alliance.

The UK is stronger as a whole Why? Give reasons, even the tories know that and I doubt they want to be the party in govt during a break up of the UK. If it keeps them in power they won't care
I still see no reason why the tories will permit another referendum but we’ll see. For the reasons I stated.

As an aside, why do you think it’s ok to vote to make Scotland poorer even if only for a decade or so? Are you personally insulated from it?

No-one is insulated from it. I'm thinking of my kids, not me.

 

[kabayiri]

Ignore the "British" angle for a moment, and think about the bigger economic/geo-political position.

Imagine if you are responsible for the EU trading block, and there's this ex-member sat a few miles off your coastline, one with a military and nuclear presence (still).

Just what do you do? If you treat them as an adversary, and grind their economy into the ground, you risk staring up nationalist sentiment.

This is what happened to Germany in the 1920s. The draconian conditions placed on Germany by the Allied nations was used by Hitler to stare up nationalism.

Somehow, I think they will have to come to some kind of working relationship. The likes of China and Russia are only too happy to stir up trouble. Australia is feeling the brunt of Chinese micro aggression at the moment.

The world has certainly felt a much more unstable place in the last couple of decades.

 

[eternumviti]

I’m not sure who you are trying to persuade that the WA is a terrible thing here?

I think that all of us who voted remain already knew that.

May’s deal was marginally less awful. But at least it didn’t threaten the union and if those mythical ‘alternative arrangements’ had been developed, it would have been signed off.

Neither WA would have helped in the negotiations we are in now.

This isn't some kind of a schoolyard competition about 'who said it first'. I was pointing out that the traps with which the WA is liberally sown demonstrates clearly that the EU is very far from benign, or even a clean player.

The EU is the most successful coming together of countries with different histories and language in peace to trade and share cultural activities. The countries in it were at war 80 years ago. It’s not perfect- what is - but the world is a better place for it being here.

It’s the only social democratic liberal democracy in the world that can stand up to China and the USA.

Stephen

Very touchy-feely. As a coming together of countries, it doesn't look wildly successful right now, no matter what contortive viewpoints one might choose.

Why would the EU want to stand up to the USA? It is the USA, not the EU, that has kept the peace in Europe for the last 75 years. What do you imagine it would stand up to either of them with? It would need a cohesive foreign policy to start with, not to mention an army. China seems to be finding its way in quite happily, either way.

Trade and share cultural activities? Why does that require a technocratic cod empire, even one with almost as many presidents as the average human being has fingers?

I believe it was the Royal Fireworks Music on the night, written by a German for another German sitting on the British throne and composed to mark the end of the war of Austrian Succession. Not exactly the world Nigel Farage and the Brexiteers occupy. I also enjoy the way EV rapidly flips between the romanticism of ‘the plucky jocks, their dutiful role in empire’ and ‘the feckless jocks with their begging bowl’. You really have to ask which is it?

Dutiful? I think in fairness it went way beyond mere duty.

 

[wacko]

Yes, I know all that.

I’m not saying ( and I don’t think anybody is saying ) these deals will fully compensate if that’s what people naively insist is the only acceptable outcome. We have left the EU and we need to do deals with as many countries as we can. Comparing these deals with what has been left behind on leaving the EU ensures the complaining is never going to end but we have to move forward. It’s really that simple.

What I’m interested in is the possibility of lots of these deals being agreed with other countries on the same terms as the EU, leaving just the EU bloc that will not agree anything. It makes the aim of the EU bloc look very much like wishing to ensure the UK fails.

We are not going to 'move forward' Brian. We are not going to forgive and forget. The 'complaining is never going to end'.
Until we rejoin the EU. It's really that simple.

 

[kabayiri]

We are not going to 'move forward' Brian. We are not going to forgive and forget. The 'complaining is never going to end'.
Until we rejoin the EU. It's really that simple.

It would need a major political party, like Labour, to adopt that as a formal position though.

To pacify the doubters within their own ranks, they would probably have to offer up a referendum on the issue.

It doesn't sound like a short term proposition.

 

[ff1d1l]

We are not going to 'move forward' Brian. We are not going to forgive and forget. The 'complaining is never going to end'.
Until we rejoin the EU. It's really that simple.

He meant move backward, with him, farage and his erg mates.

 

[stephen bennett]

This isn't some kind of a schoolyard competition about 'who said it first'. I was pointing out that the traps with which the WA is liberally sown demonstrates clearly that the EU is very far from benign, or even a clean player.

No entity is benign. It's a fallacious argument.

As you said, it's not a pi$$ing contest. The EU is protecting the EU interests as we are (apparently) ours.

But, we, signed and passed (and you voted for) the WA! The EU did not force us to. We could have left any time in the last 4 years. If we end up with no-deal, we might as well have. Thwere was literally nothing stopping us (apart from vestigial common sense).

Brexit is our problem, something we did to ourselves—and something that leavers in general seem to find a difficult concept to understand.

Stephen

 

[eternumviti]

No entity is benign. It's a fallacious argument.

As you said, it's not a pi$$ing contest. The EU is protecting the EU interests as we are (apparently) ours.

But, we, signed and passed (and you voted for) the WA! The EU did not force us to. We could have left any time in the last 4 years. If we end up with no-deal, we might as well have. Thwere was literally nothing stopping us (apart from vestigial common sense).

Brexit is our problem, something we did to ourselves—and something that leavers in general seem to find a difficult concept to understand.

Stephen

The EU is extending its interests, not merely protecting them.

We wouldn't be here today if the EU had ever given a fig for democracy, it really isn't much more complicated than that.

I voted for the WA because there really was no other choice.

You are right though. We should have simply left 4 years ago. Even I said at the time that 'the establishment', which includes the EU, was never going let us out of the net. We were worth too much to it, and the vested interests were too entrenched.

 

[stephen bennett]

The EU is extending its interests, not merely protecting them.

We wouldn't be here today if the EU had ever given a fig for democracy, it really isn't much more complicated than that.

I voted for the WA because there really was no other choice.

You are right though. We should have simply left 4 years ago. Even I said at the time that 'the establishment', which includes the EU, was never going let us out of the net. We were worth too much to it, and the vested interests were too entrenched.

Funnily enough, the remain position was that this would end up where we are now if we voted to leave.

It was Leave who said we could leave without consequences.

There’s always another choice.

Stephen