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'Best' Universities to charge more.. Discuss.

Minstrel SE said:
Its all very lovely. some of the courses sound like fun.

Im asking where they actually lead now. I am aware of the depth of Philosophy. I mentioned it because I wonder where it actually leads in a competitive world where everyone has to earn a crust. I rub my chin in the pub and come up with philosophical statements :)

My sister did American Studies :) She is now an accountant. However she is only an accountant because she networked on volunteering schemes and a friend got her into an office linked to a factory. From there she studied to CIMA while doing the office grunt work. It must have been tough for her at that stage.

American Studies though :D I make my point....Touche! :)
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Unless you're planning a career in something like medicine, science or engineering, most big employers are more interested in grades and university ranking rather than the actual subject. They look for people with inherent academic ability, rather than a specific skill set, as these people tend to be more versatile. It's often better for someone to study a subject of interest, rather than a more vocational course, as enthusiasm for the subject raises motivation to study and will usually result in a better grade. Careers such as accountancy, business consultancy, banking, law, teaching and IT don't need specific undergrad degree qualifications, but they will need additional study and qualifications.

History and Philosophy graduates are only slightly behind Engineering graduates in the employment stats.
 
fay spook said:
According to the neph BA 2.1 Kent (Cantab) there was a lot of time spent doing f@ck all and his degree could have been done in 2 extended years.
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Maybe if your neph had done more personal study, rather than doing f@ck all, they would have got a first :)
 
Minstrel SE said:
Its all very lovely. some of the courses sound like fun.

Im asking where they actually lead now. I am aware of the depth of Philosophy. I mentioned it because I wonder where it actually leads in a competitive world where everyone has to earn a crust. I rub my chin in the pub and come up with philosophical statements :)

My sister did American Studies :) She is now an accountant. However she is only an accountant because she networked on volunteering schemes and a friend got her into an office linked to a factory. From there she studied to CIMA while doing the office grunt work. It must have been tough for her at that stage.

American Studies though :D I make my point....Touche! :)
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Minstrel, you have been told repeatedly that course subject is not (except in some very obvious cases) the main arbiter here. If you choose to continue to ignore this fact, you are simply reinforcing mine and others' view that you really don't understand HE.

In many instances, people use 'any' degree (obviously at the required pass level) to access either post grad full time HE courses, or work based post grad professional training. If you can't either grasp, or accept this simple fact, you will never get it.

Mull
 
It's quite common to confuse HE academic study (academic writing, critical analysis, logical thinking and argument and student self-efficacy) with HE vocational training (learning how to do specific stuff).

In fact, the current Government appear not to understand it at all. To be honest, this confusion can arise because quite a few HE institutions offering both types of study.

The latter type of education trains you to work in a single area. The former allows you to be flexible in your potential employment. Both have value and deserve equal respect—or they should do. They do in Germany, for example, which is one of the important reasons as to why they are such a successful economy.

Stephen
 
Joe Hutch said:
To be brutally frank, English really is a doddle. Indeed, most arts degrees could be done in two years, as almost everyone spends year two just arsing about.
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Joe, you only need to peruse a few threads here to know that English is not a doddle for all. But I jest, I understand what you are saying but I disagree and the evidence doesn't support your view.

I really dont think the 'my degree subject is harder than yours' adds either substance, or indeed value to this debate.

Minstrel is constantly conflating course subject and course utility. You are in some senses supporting this false notion.

Utility is only measurable in relation to purpose. The purpose of a degree course in most subjects is to challenge, develop and ultimately demonstrate the intellectual capacity of the student. I won't break this down further as you know exactly what I mean. This element of a degree, irrespective of subject in many cases, is what the employer, or the post grad admissions officer is looking for.

It's that simple.

Mull

P.S. I hope you weren't including Art and Design in your 'Arts' courses. My daughter would have severe words with you after spending 4 years of highly intensive and mostly practical work gaining her BA in Fashion Design. Also Languages. My other daughter spent four years studying French and Spanish for her degree and my wife spent four years qualifying as a Translator.
 
The purpose of degree study is to develop how to think. Of course you will also gather a lot of information in your chosen subject on the way.

When I was at Uni we'd ask what discipline an undergrad was reading and that I think describes what university is all about oh and the booze.

This also means that getting a first by working harder is false. There are those that are academically gifted and can walk a first (my late friend Steve* was in this category and had the IQ of a genius and earned two degrees Science/Philosophy and Music but worked in IT). Mere mortals tend to get the 2.x degrees.

Of course not all universities are made equal and many are renamed polys and their ilk that just don't have the same rigour. In which case the standards may be lower. Thats why employers look at the uni that a job applicant went rather than the actual subject that was studied unless that is critical to the employment.

When I read Chemistry all those years ago about half of my year planned on going into management. For them it was about logical approach and analytical thinking if I remember correctly.

Cheers,

DV

* Just noticed Steves obituary set up on facebook https://www.facebook.com/wilfhey/

I worked with Steve for 8 years until we were both marched off premises on the same day to be made redundant. We kept in touch and he was my best man at my wedding and later god father to my youngest who is completing her final at KCL. Steve then used his middle name (Wilf) when writing for PC Plus to avoid confusion with another member of the staff.

He is also known as the person who originally developed Report Program Generator and coined the phrase GIGO (garbage in: garbage out). He also told me that he invented the ice cube plastic bag. I learnt an awful lot about programming and computer architecture from working with him and some very interesting stories from the Bible - he could make it come alive and became a lay preacher.
 
Darth Vader said:
The purpose of degree study is to develop how to think. Of course you will also gather a lot of information in your chosen subject on the way.
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Broadly agree.

When I was at Uni we'd ask what discipline an undergrad was reading and that I think describes what university is all about oh and the booze.
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The concept of 'reading' for a degree is largely an affectation these days. It also is not an accurate descriptor for many degree courses.

This also means that getting a first by working harder is false.
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I imagine this is hugely dependent upon the course and its staff. On my course, nobody had gained, or rather, been awarded, a First for about 15 years. I have little idea what that actually tells us.

There are those that are academically gifted and can walk a first (my late friend Steve* was in this category and had the IQ of a genius and earned two degrees Science/Philosophy and Music but worked in IT). Mere mortals tend to get the 2.x degrees.
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Still think much depends upon the course etc.

Of course not all universities are made equal and many are renamed polys and their ilk that just don't have the same rigour. In which case the standards may be lower. Thats why employers look at the uni that a job applicant went rather than the actual subject that was studied unless that is critical to the employment.
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This is sheer and misinformed snobbery, as is so much of the received 'wisdom' about HE. Polys were inroduced to provide more access to, particularly, more 'vocational' Higher Ed, but over time they and their degree offers became all but indistinguishable from unis, hence the redesignation.

It is also arguable that the degree moderation of Polys and auditing by the CNAA ( Council For National Academic Awards) made for greater rigour and a more consistent and reliable output, than the practice of unis awarding their own degrees.

The bigger and better Polys, such as Manchester were created by a merging of long established centres of excellence in many fields and could certainly hold their own against many of the universities. In fact my old boss used to argue that Manchester should have mantained its status, rather than becoming 'just another' uni.

When I read Chemistry all those years ago about half of my year planned on going into management. For them it was about logical approach and analytical thinking if I remember correctly.
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Indeed, if you want the best degree you can get, it makes sense to play to your strengths. There is no reason why science/technical subjects cannot be used to access non technical employment or post grad training/ed.

Cheers,

DV

* Just noticed Steves obituary set up on facebook https://www.facebook.com/wilfhey/

I worked with Steve for 8 years until we were both marched off premises on the same day to be made redundant. We kept in touch and he was my best man at my wedding and later god father to my youngest who is completing her final at KCL. Steve then used his middle name (Wilf) when writing for PC Plus to avoid confusion with another member of the staff.

He is also known as the person who originally developed Report Program Generator and coined the phrase GIGO (garbage in: garbage out). He also told me that he invented the ice cube plastic bag. I learnt an awful lot about programming and computer architecture from working with him and some very interesting stories from the Bible - he could make it come alive and became a lay preacher.
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Heath said:
Maybe if your neph had done more personal study, rather than doing f@ck all, they would have got a first :)
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Well of course you've highlighted another aspect of HE which is often misunderstood by both students and the general publc. I.E., uni is not just like GCSE and A level but 'a bit harder'. It is largely about self motivated study around a framework provided by the course curriculum.

Mull
 
Serves you right for believing the bollocks that £9000 tuition fees would be only for the top tier Universities and that the majority of the universities will only charge a "nominal fee". A NuLab idea. Tories thought about it ages ago and through it was too divisive. Now its in place the Tories have realised just how much they can get away with. So this is a natural consequence.
 
Mullardman said:
Joe, you only need to peruse a few threads here to know that English is not a doddle for all. But I jest, I understand what you are saying but I disagree and the evidence doesn't support your view.

I really dont think the 'my degree subject is harder than yours' adds either substance, or indeed value to this debate.
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I can only speak of an English degree really, as it's only one I have direct experience of. To suggest that it's as difficult to get an English degree as it is to get, say, a medical degree is, IMO, simply wrong. My daughters both studied English, some 30 years after me, and they said the same; the medics they knew slogged their guts out, while the English students ligged about for much of the time. What's more, it's much harder to get on to a medical degree course, and much easier to get slung off if you fail to make the grade. (Which is as it should be, of course).
 
bownose said:
Serves you right for believing the bollocks that £9000 tuition fees would be only for the top tier Universities and that the majority of the universities will only charge a "nominal fee". A NuLab idea. Tories thought about it ages ago and through it was too divisive. Now its in place the Tories have realised just how much they can get away with. So this is a natural consequence.
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I don't think anyone believed it, apart from a few politicians and special advisers. Certainly most if not all the academics I knew said the same thing; no university would risk its reputation by charging significantly less than the market leaders (basically Oxbridge and the Russell Group). No university could charge a nominal fee, anyway, because that wouldn't even cover the cost of staff salaries and teaching accommodation, even for 'cheap' subjects, which to some extent subsidise the expensive ones.
 
Joe Hutch said:
I can only speak of an English degree really, as it's only one I have direct experience of. To suggest that it's as difficult to get an English degree as it is to get, say, a medical degree is, IMO, simply wrong. My daughters both studied English, some 30 years after me, and they said the same; the medics they knew slogged their guts out, while the English students ligged about for much of the time. What's more, it's much harder to get on to a medical degree course, and much easier to get slung off if you fail to make the grade. (Which is as it should be, of course).
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Difficulty should not be confused with the application required. Medical degrees require rote learning to the highest level but do not require much if any original thought.
 
Maybe you're right. Here is what Hazlitt had to say on the matter almost 200 years ago:

The study of the Classics is less to be regarded as an exercise of the intellect, than as a ‘discipline of humanity’. The peculiar advantage of this mode of education consists not so much in strengthening the understanding, as in softening and refining the taste. It gives men liberal views, it accustoms the mind to take an interest in in things foreign to itself, to prefer fame to life, and glory to riches, and to fix our minds on the remote and permanent instead of narrow and fleeting objects.
 
Joe Hutch said:
I can only speak of an English degree really, as it's only one I have direct experience of. To suggest that it's as difficult to get an English degree as it is to get, say, a medical degree is, IMO, simply wrong. My daughters both studied English, some 30 years after me, and they said the same; the medics they knew slogged their guts out, while the English students ligged about for much of the time. What's more, it's much harder to get on to a medical degree course, and much easier to get slung off if you fail to make the grade. (Which is as it should be, of course).
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Joe, I cannot disagree with any of what you say above.

However, you have not addressed what I was saying.

I was simply pointing out that comparing difficulty has little relevance to utility when it comes to degree qualifications. We need graduates in all disciplines, so arguing about relative difficulty is pretty pointless. It is also fraught with complexity. Imagine how difficult it would be to rank order degree courses by some notion of difficulty. Few would argue that Medicine is hard work. But then so are Fashion courses. It's a minefield that we don't need to cross.
Mull
 
It was Blair who first introduced tuition fees, and it was Blair who introduced Academisation, both of which have led to the increasing monetisation of education from early years to post 18 that we see today.

Should Blair be impeached for crimes against education?
 
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