advertisement


'Best' Universities to charge more.. Discuss.

Minstrel SE said:
Lots of GIANT elephants walking round the room in our scam and sham of an education system

A substantial amount of students will never earn enough to start paying the loan but it will be hovering over them for the rest of their working lives.
It will never be paid in many cases. Its putting people off going to university which I know is the overall plan to make it more exclusive and perpetuate the class system. The taxpayer still picks up the bill in many (most?) cases.

Graduates are now doing jobs like telesales/chugging because quite frankly there will never be decent opportunities for them no matter what piece of paper they were handed on graduation day. They essentially have no skills that anyone will pay for so they have been duped.

A case in point is the young woman with a degree who was forced to work at a pound chain. Its all very well saying she wanted to work in a museum but it took her a long time to get anything more than DWP abuse.

If they were being given information that would make them a fortune what is the lecturer stood there for????...ie on many courses you are being trained to be a lecturer with the same old info regurgitated again.

Its fast becoming an all or nothing economy. Either you think outside the box and create the next Facebook/Naim or its grunt work all the way. You need to be doing serious courses like medicine or dentistry. The middle range jobs are fast disappearing.

I graft and I graft hard but my skills are nothing a university could have taught me. College was fine and even then I learn something new on many jobs. I accept I wont be buying superyacht anytime soon :)

Way more than 50% of the courses are garbage. They lead nowhere and take no account of the current saturated and overcrowded jobs market. They play on the young naivety of wannabe students. The universities and lecturers are still raking it in because its a cynical ploy to create wishy washy courses and earn a living

Ive seen this at all levels from confidence courses to false apprenticeships The only people benefiting are guess who?.....the tutors and organisations set up to rob the european social fund and taxpayer

Who is going for a life experience now with a £30,000 loan? I quite fancy a social networking/ drinking session for 3 years but not at that price :) I quite fancy expanding my horizons but I dont agree with Mull and others that any "education" is worthwhile. Thats the sort of nonsense put forward by the education industry

Seriously its all part of the plan to extend a class and two tier education system. Rant over. Im calm....now discuss :)
Click to expand...

Where did I say that? Answer. I didn't.

However, it is far too simplistic to say that 50% of courses are crap. If you don't understand that in many cases it is the intellectual rigour of the course, rather than the absolute subject matter which is important, then I'm afraid you don't understand higher education.
Also, beware of stupid 'surveys' which slam some courses because their participants weren't employed 6 months after graduating. I wasn't employed 6 months after graduating. Neither was my wife. It is a normal part of progression from many courses to go onto post grad qualifications which take typicaly 1 year and therefore automatically create this false stat.

That said, I have no doubt that the current plan by the Tories is designed to do two things. 1. To generate more cash for their friends. 2. To re-create the old false divide between unis and polys by creating a two tier HE system. But it's worse than that Jim.. because this divide will be entirely based upon ability tpo pay, and some no doubt nebulous measure of teaching qualiity.

Mull
 
Bob McC said:
£30,000 loan?
If only!

3 years at £9000/year tuition loan and £5000/year maintenance loan is £42000 for a 3 year course.
Click to expand...

For my step daughter the £5000 only just covers her city centre university accommodation. Universities are also making a killing on accommodation, as are other student accommodation providers.

On top of that we have to support her living costs, which she supplements with part time work - so she can buy a few treats and nights out etc.

The system really is broken.
 
Minstrel SE said:
A substantial amount of students will never earn enough to start paying the loan but it will be hovering over them for the rest of their working lives.
It will never be paid in many cases. Its putting people off going to university
Click to expand...

It clearly isn't; that's part of the problem. Demand has remained buoyant despite increased tuition fees.
 
And largely because there is no viable middle ground. Proper apprenticeships often led, in the past, to people attaining degree level anyway, but via a more part time/work based route. This seems rare these days.

Also, it bears repeating that without any coherent system of information advice and guidance, many are ill equipped to see possibilities other that uni or nothing.

Mull
 
Mullardman said:
Where did I say that? Answer. I didn't.

However, it is far too simplistic to say that 50% of courses are crap. If you don't understand that in many cases it is the intellectual rigour of the course, rather than the absolute subject matter which is important, then I'm afraid you don't understand higher education.
Also, beware of stupid 'surveys' which slam some courses because their participants weren't employed 6 months after graduating. I wasn't employed 6 months after graduating. Neither was my wife. It is a normal part of progression from many courses to go onto post grad qualifications which take typicaly 1 year and therefore automatically create this false stat.

That said, I have no doubt that the current plan by the Tories is designed to do two things. 1. To generate more cash for their friends. 2. To re-create the old false divide between unis and polys by creating a two tier HE system. But it's worse than that Jim.. because this divide will be entirely based upon ability tpo pay, and some no doubt nebulous measure of teaching qualiity.

Mull
Click to expand...

Yes I shouldnt have slipped your name in there and its not a personal attack on you. I will edit that out. Im pretty sure in the past you did say that all if not most of education is worthwhile....that stuck in my mind. I would disagree with anyone that uses that liberal wishy washy approach to a serious issue.

I dont think its about the rigour of the course anymore showing a general ability. That assumes the course was worthwhile and tough in the first place. I believe its about cold hard skills at any intellectual level. Its all about exclusive skills and how people get themselves noticed.

Cynical companies now are just hiring graduates to do their grunt work because graduates are so damn desperate as reality sinks in

I actually think Im holding back. Its nearer 70% of courses in my view. I believe they are useless because Ive looked at loads of them. At my age I have a clarity and clear understanding of capitalism. I certainly have a good overview of the jobs market.

So yes I do have strong views about an ineffectual and scam education system. If they are duping people then they are scamming them.
 
Joe Hutch said:
It clearly isn't; that's part of the problem. Demand has remained buoyant despite increased tuition fees.
Click to expand...

Well there is a push from school as that is how the system is geared up. Lets face that there seems little else without some dream of further education and opportunities. If I was young maybe the student loan is just one of those things in life to take on

I reckon its putting older students off though.

The other side of things is that you cant keep piling people into universities if theres nothing at the end of it. I will be blunt here. Ive seen people who dont seem intelligent enough to go. I dont know how they got through and bit just seems to have dumbed down

I know that sounds nasty and Im thick as a brick but thats my perception. I would offer them other options than the misery of being an unemployed graduate
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
In essence its 'PFI' in another form. Gets the cost off the Chancellor's Books, but becomes a far bigger tab to be picked up eventually. Convenient for politicians who can then pass the buck and blame someone else.
Click to expand...

Indeed. It's a Mr Micawber attitude, the hope that 'something will turn up', which eventually leads to a bankrupt system. Labour were no better, pretending that a massive increase in university education could be afforded without massively increasing tuition fees, or introducing a graduate tax, or something to pay for it.

The Scottish decision to keep university education 'free' has resulted in institutions being kept short of money and thus being unable to modernise equipment or maintain buildings properly.
 
Minstrel SE said:
Yes I shouldnt have slipped your name in there and its not a personal attack on you. I will edit that out. Im pretty sure in the past you did say that all if not most of education is worthwhile....that stuck in my mind. I would disagree with anyone that uses that liberal wishy washy approach to a serious issue.

I dont think its about the rigour of the course anymore showing a general ability. That assumes the course was worthwhile and tough in the first place. I believe its about cold hard skills at any intellectual level. Its all about exclusive skills and how people get themselves noticed.

Cynical companies now are just hiring graduates to do their grunt work because graduates are so damn desperate as reality sinks in

I actually think Im holding back. Its nearer 70% of courses in my view. I believe they are useless because Ive looked at loads of them. At my age I have a clarity and clear understanding of capitalism. I certainly have a good overview of the jobs market.

So yes I do have strong views about an ineffectual and scam education system. If they are duping people then they are scamming them.
Click to expand...

37000+ undergraduate courses offered through UCAS alone.......... given the number of worthwhile ones is so small, I'd be interested in your views as to which ones they might be.......
 
And, of course, Brexit would bring several universities to their knees, relying as they do on a steady stream of EU students.

I'm not sure how we get from here to a sustainable system. How it used to work was that richer students would pay full whack on tuition fees and maintenance, subsidising to some extent poorer students who were awarded scholarships and had their maintenance paid for. But that was when the student population was less than 10% of the relevant age group!

A two-tier system, in some form, is probably inevitable, unless a decision is made to reduce the % of university students, and I somehow can't see any politician being brave/stupid enough to make such a proposal. Such a system might involve a reversal to the previous system of campus universities for the few, and poly-like institutions for the many, which would mostly have home-based students, cutting the cost of maintenance. It's all academic for me (pun intended) because my children are both through the system, and there are no signs of grandchildren to worry about (or pay for!)
 
gintonic said:
37000+ undergraduate courses offered through UCAS alone.......... given the number of worthwhile ones is so small, I'd be interested in your views as to which ones they might be.......
Click to expand...

Are you ready for a list of 25900? Can this site handle it? :)

Im not going to fully bite here. You KNOW what Im getting at. You tell me the good courses.

I will start with David Beckham studies at Staffordshire university to highlight a point. There are countless courses along those lines.

Then we have a small sample of media studies, philosophy, theatre studies, golf management, history..... etc...plenty more I could mention

A bachelors degree soft subjects from a low rent uni and you can jump a couple of places in the line for a call centre job

I would even argue that with a degree in electronic engineering youve got to know exactly where you are heading and what you can do to stand out from the crowd.... a clue here is the big companies arent generally hiring even if they havent cleared off abroad...the big tech companies want very specific skills and experience....have you got the knowledge to take on the established players in repair or design?

Heck I would even argue that if you do Maths or Physics,then you had better be sure where it might lead and what you can actually offer. These core subjects do not guarantee an easy path. They are not the guarantees of employment that they once were

Im saying it can be a complete lottery. At £40,000 choose well
 
Joe Hutch said:
And, of course, Brexit would bring several universities to their knees, relying as they do on a steady stream of EU students.

I'm not sure how we get from here to a sustainable system. How it used to work was that richer students would pay full whack on tuition fees and maintenance, subsidising to some extent poorer students who were awarded scholarships and had their maintenance paid for. But that was when the student population was less than 10% of the relevant age group!
Click to expand...

No students from more wealthy backgrounds still had their tuition fees paid by their local authority, they just had little or no grants available to them.

The universities used to use the fees from overseas students to make their killing from.
 
Joe Hutch said:
And, of course, Brexit would bring several universities to their knees, relying as they do on a steady stream of EU students.

I'm not sure how we get from here to a sustainable system. How it used to work was that richer students would pay full whack on tuition fees and maintenance, subsidising to some extent poorer students who were awarded scholarships and had their maintenance paid for. But that was when the student population was less than 10% of the relevant age group!

A two-tier system, in some form, is probably inevitable, unless a decision is made to reduce the % of university students, and I somehow can't see any politician being brave/stupid enough to make such a proposal. Such a system might involve a reversal to the previous system of campus universities for the few, and poly-like institutions for the many, which would mostly have home-based students, cutting the cost of maintenance. It's all academic for me (pun intended) because my children are both through the system, and there are no signs of grandchildren to worry about (or pay for!)
Click to expand...

As EU students in England pay the same as home students, and in Scotland pay nothing how are EU students propping the system up?
 
Son studying MA Chemistry, lectures have over 120 students in the lecture theatre lots of PhD 'assistants', a few personal tutorials per semester any more have to be requested-and this is a very good course. Can industry absorb those X times120 or more per year? No chance, they take the best just like many other subject areas.
Business is the prime beneficiary of university educated employees and IMO should foot the lions share of the bill through undergrad sponsorship, enhance apprenticeship schemes(to a much larger extent than at present).
Tuition fees and maintenance grants should be funded to the amount the undergrad would otherwise receive in benefits over the 3 years....
 
It would probably help if we re-introduced a requirement/levy system so that buisness had to pay for *paid* apprenticeships or training. i.e. akin to the old system where their either did their own share of such training for themselves, or contributed towards others doing it. This would help rebuild a skills and training layer and mean more choice for students rather than all being pushed towards the academic side.

One side-effect being to undermine the 'internships' where people are used as free labour *if* their parents can afford to subsidise them, taking away posts that otherwise the organisations would have to pay someone to do.

Might also help if we introduced requirements that various technical trades - plumbing, etc - required the practictioner to have passed a suitable course/apprenticeship and continued to do good work. This would help weed out cowboys and raise standards.

It would also take pressure off the Uni sector and might lower the looming costs for us all when the current 'student loans' Ponzi-alike scheme eventually crashes.
 
I think all core degree courses should be free.

I also don't think that, for example, history courses such as Medieval History should be included in a list of bad subjects as suggested by Minstrel SE. History is a core intellectual subject.
 
It appears he only values medicine and accountancy.
I wouldn't worry about it.
There are millions who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top