Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
If you can find one.... a Grace F9E is one hell of a good MM
Best cheap MM cart?
- Thread starter Tigerjones
- Start date
Tigerjones
Bagpuss
Fair points, Craig. Rather ignorant in these matters.
Tony L
Administrator
I’d not argue against that at all and I’m a firm believer in the more expensive tip profiles having had Ortofon’s Shibata and Geiger profiles on my previous two carts and currently a nude micro-line on a boron cantilever. This quality of tip is well worth paying for, and as you say the phono stage may be possible to sort out. I know nothing about the amp so it may even be switchable internally for all I know. All I’m doing is pointing out that if not I certainly couldn’t live with the searing brightness of a mismatch, and AT carts can sound dreadfully bright and thin when incorrectly loaded. They really demand next to no capacitance at the amp and a good low-capacitance arm-lead to sound the way they should. I remember borrowing Rob Holt’s AT150 MLX a few years ago and whilst it was clear it was a genuinely superb cartridge and could track anything cleanly (reminds me very much of the similarly boron cantilevered and micro-line tipped MP-500 in that respect) it just sounded so bright and thin into the phono stage I had at the time (a DV P100) it was a non-starter.
It really annoys me that so many modern MM carts make such unrealistic demands of the phono stage. Many of yesterday’s classics, e.g. Ortofon VMS20E, 30E & M20FL, Shure V15/III, Grace etc etc, each considered amongst the best MM carts ever made, were all happy with 400pF or above. It is obviously far easier to add capacitance than to remove it, e.g. you could add it in the phono plugs.
Craig B
Re:trophile
I totally agree Tony; It would seem that, somewhere along the line, part of the phono cartridge industry decided to do a left turn without letting the rest of the industry know.
BTW, you just listed 4 of my 10 favorite MM/MI cartridges of all time. In fact, I still have a new unused F9E replacement tip, the damper of which I hope will last long enough for that cart to see me out.
If they could chop saw a bit of arm height off that Jelco down in Brighton, this little setup could be a keeper...
BTW, you just listed 4 of my 10 favorite MM/MI cartridges of all time. In fact, I still have a new unused F9E replacement tip, the damper of which I hope will last long enough for that cart to see me out.
If they could chop saw a bit of arm height off that Jelco down in Brighton, this little setup could be a keeper...
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
It's a generic 2 transistor series feedback RIAA eq phono stage of the simplest type as used on virtually every mid sixties to early 70's budget to mid price amp of all makes and origins. Many had a third transistor as an emitter follower but this one omits it. From Alba and Metrosound to Leak, Sugden, B & O and Quad (33) almost all used virtually the same basic topology with minor detail differences.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
It's usually a very easy job to change the capacitance of any phono stage/phono input on integrated amp etc to whatever is required... provided you can identify the loading caps and solder OK! I can ahem... offer this service for anyone without the confidence to tackle it themselves...
Tigerjones
Bagpuss
Maybe, but it sounds lovely.
Craig B
Re:trophile
If you can find one.... a Grace F9E is one hell of a good MM
https://www.lpgear.com/product/GRACEF9E.html
Says, 'Deactivated'; don't know if they had a NOS one or what,but look at that price!
I paid my mate $50. for mine when he changed it out for an Ortofon MC300 (I've got that now too and it is a exquisite thing); still had lots of life left in the tip. A couple of years later, I purchased a new 9E stylus from the dealer; the brand completely disappeared not long after. I decided to try something different and have kept the Grace bits tucked away in their boxes ever since. Hopefully the suspension damper hasn't turned into goo or dust. I re-purposed a barely used mid-70s MC20/MCA76 recently and it sounded fab, so fingers crossed re the Grace.
Tony L
Administrator
It is a real crap-shoot trying to predict how long a NOS or low-mileage cart will survive in storage. The classic Ortofons (VMS20E, 30E and M20FL) have a reputation of belly-flopping these days as the rubber parts have usually largely perished, which is a huge shame as they have a real fan-base out there in internet audio-land and NOS styli are expensive and carry a real risk. I know I liked my old M20FL a lot back in the early ‘80s, though my current MP-500 is a far better match with my current arm so I don’t miss it (I used it in a veey low-mass fluid-damped AT1120).
As to the Grace F9E, which I always really liked but never got round to owning, I have no idea. I have an old Shure M95ED knocking around that must date from the ‘70s and it seems perfectly happy, and I’ve found the same with a truly ancient Shure M3D. The only carts I’m aware of having a bad reputation for collapsing are the aforementioned Ortofons and various ADCs (XLM, VLM etc) so hopefully it will be fine! Not heard of Nagaokas collapsing either so I’m kind of tempted to stockpile a couple of styli for mine as they can be had fairly cheaply direct from Japan.
PS Another great MM was the Fidelity Research FR101, I used one of those for a good while and felt sonewhat cheated when I ended up replacing it with a Linn K9!
narabdela
who?
Robert
Tapehead
I would also recommend the AT 440 but if you don't know the loading characteristics of the phono input then the Denon DL110 is a safe and excellent choice.
High output MC so insensitive to all but crazy extreme loading conditions.
Not so cheap these days but same ball park at the AT.
High output MC so insensitive to all but crazy extreme loading conditions.
Not so cheap these days but same ball park at the AT.
Robert
Tapehead
That will probably take a current AT posh stylus.
My first LP12 (1987 IIRC) came with a K9. They were decent cartridges for the money.
Tony L
Administrator
It certainly takes an AT95E stylus, as that’s pretty much what it is but with metal mounting lugs (‘Linn-tight’ daftness) and IIRC a far nicer nude elliptical stylus. Can you fit a 440ML or 150MLX type stylus to it?
PS I suspect you’d really like the better Nags.
Craig B
Re:trophile
$US 349. for DL-110 via usa.denon.com!
The DL-103 is only $299 and, wait for it, DL-301II with its machined alloy mounting block is $329.
Robert, is this the result of your years of talking up the DL-110?
Oddly, on another page they list refurbished DL-110 at $109 ($30. instant savings off an MSRP of $139.) but indicate that they are currently out of stock. Did the bloody thing jump from $139. directly to $349.?
Very difficult to find this refurbished page via the site links. I was looking at the DL-301II and there were direct links to the other cartridge models; I clicked on the DL110 one an ended up on this refurbished listing rather than the regular new item listing that I had been on previously...
https://usa.denon.com/us/product/refurbishedprocat/turntables/dl110
The DL-103 is only $299 and, wait for it, DL-301II with its machined alloy mounting block is $329.
Robert, is this the result of your years of talking up the DL-110?
Oddly, on another page they list refurbished DL-110 at $109 ($30. instant savings off an MSRP of $139.) but indicate that they are currently out of stock. Did the bloody thing jump from $139. directly to $349.?
Very difficult to find this refurbished page via the site links. I was looking at the DL-301II and there were direct links to the other cartridge models; I clicked on the DL110 one an ended up on this refurbished listing rather than the regular new item listing that I had been on previously...
https://usa.denon.com/us/product/refurbishedprocat/turntables/dl110
Craig B
Re:trophile
Cheers Robert,
Mine came on a Linn Axis with Basik Plus. IIRC, the tip was billed as being a Vital type but with the same straight aluminium cantilever as AT93/95E, rather than the tapered tube of the K18 and dearer ATs.
I felt that its performance sat somewhere between AT120E and AT140ML, both of which I had in use at the time.
Last edited:
Tigerjones
Bagpuss
Wise words as always, Robert. Hope you’re well.
Robert
Tapehead
Hi Tony,
Never tried one of the 100 series styli on the 91/95 style body but I have used a 440/150ml stylus on many of the older AT P-Mount cartridges. This is a great way to get a modern quality P-Mount solution for all those Technics SL10/7s in dire need of a quality cartridge. Those look very similar in terms of the metal generator section. I suspect it would work if the plastic stylus doesn't foul the mounting bracket.
It's funny as although I've used far more carts than I can remember, I've only ever used one Nag - an MP11 boron. Very good though, smooth and solid beyond its (then) modest price.
Robert
Tapehead
$US 349. for DL-110 via usa.denon.com!
The DL-103 is only $299 and, wait for it, DL-301II with its machined alloy mounting block is $329.
Robert, is this the result of your years of talking up the DL-110?
Haha I recall way back when I first starting talking about the DL110 it cost £49
In fact it launched at that price and stayed there for about 10 years.
You're welcome as always, and I'm well thanks
Don't get onto hi-fi forums much these days, mostly because my interests are confined to vintage gear, and secondly I've rediscover an old love of tinkering with computers, so now I'm spending time playing around in Linux and helping develop a small Linux distribution.