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BBC Proms 2023

The Captain said:
That does seem remarkable to me. As surely the thing was designed with acoustics primarily in mind. And the LZ 71? live recording (bonham orange wifebeater t-shirt) is great, no smearing. Perplexing.
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I don't think it was designed (in the 1870s remember) primarily as a venue for classical music. Queen's Hall was the place for that and it was only after that hall's wartime demise that the RAH became the home of the Proms. As "Britain's Village Hall" the huge space has always been used for all kinds of things, but has always been challenging for classical music and is, frankly, unsuitable for much unamplified music owing to its size and shape which produces a pronounced echo.The famous mushrooms from the 70s certainly helped but it's never been great.

Apparently a new sound system has recently been introduced but whether that is used to enhance live classical music or just for public address and amplified music, I'm not sure.

Pro musicians I know who have worked there describe it as difficult to play/sing in. I've sung there myself in choirs and you certainly don't get anything back! But that said, it's such an incredible atmosphere and supportive audience at Proms that all is forgiven!
 
The Albert Hall has long been considered to have poor acoustics and various improvements have been made over the years, including the floating baffles mentioned. Much less was known about concert hall acoustics when the hall was built in the late 1860s.

My late MIL, a keen amateur choral singer, sang in the Albert Hall with Malcolm Sargent conducting and she thought it a wonderful experience.

The Proms were originally held in the Queens Hall Langham Place which had excellent acoustics but was destroyed in by bombing in 1941.
 
But good acoustics were known when Gloucester cathedral was built. When greek amphitheaters were. Even a cavemen probably contemplated his cave acoustics after a tremendous burp, wouldn't you think?

If it has a stage, & built in a faux roman style, I can't imagine acoustics wouldn't be anything but a primary design aspect.
 
I’ve only ever been to the Albert Hall/Proms as the queue up outside and stand in the central mosh-pit area behind the conductor bit, and that is great. Tiring, as it is a long time standing, but great atmosphere and sound. A good orchestra sounds incredible, e.g. Mahler with BPO/Rattle, the string sound was unbelievably good; textured, layered and visceral. Can’t remember which symphony, but would have been back in the late ‘90s. I went to a few around that time, but always queue up outside and stand in the middle, I’ve never sat in a seat there.
 
Tony L said:
I’ve only ever been to the Albert Hall/Proms as the queue up outside and stand in the central mosh-pit area behind the conductor bit, and that is great. Tiring, as it is a long time standing, but great atmosphere and sound. A good orchestra sounds incredible, e.g. Mahler with BPO/Rattle, the string sound was unbelievably good; textured, layered and visceral. Can’t remember which symphony, but would have been back in the late ‘90s. I went to a few around that time, but always queue up outside and stand in the middle, I’ve never sat in a seat there.
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Spot on TonyL. I'd think I'd have the same reaction, sure of it. To my shame just into my 50's I've never heard an orchestra in full fettle. London, Manchester, Leeds, the 3 cities I've lived in.. I didn't consider even going to anything affordable in a church. Urgh. One of my life's regrets, appreciating classical music more with age.

So if you were in the cheap seats/ mosh pit, & knowing the Brixton Academy's very same spot is appallingly bad, it sounds to me like those suspended mushrooms baffle -are- doing the job well. So some say it's very good acoustically, but others say very poor. Hmm. Interesting.
 
The Captain said:
So if you were in the cheap seats/ mosh pit, & knowing the Brixton Academy's very same spot is appallingly bad, it sounds to me like those suspended mushrooms baffle -are- doing the job well. So some say it's very good acoustically, but others say very poor. Hmm. Interesting.
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I wasn’t far enough away for acoustics to be much of an issue, only about 15 feet behind the conductor. The think the RAH’s well documented problems come in the multi-tiers of seating. At that distance, like so many venues, it is basically a reverb chamber.

Same logic usually applies with rock gigs. Often the best sound is right at the very front standing right against the centre of the stage. That way you hear the backline and acoustic drum sound, not whatever mess is being pumped out of the PA and bounced around the venue. Sure, you can’t hear the vocals etc, but I’d take the rest of the band being in time over that most times. That said, and despite being an ex-indie muso, I mostly hate rock gigs. They almost always sound like crap to my ears. Too loud, too reverberant, too distorted, and out of time out of tune. Just a mess sonically. I’d always prefer to see a band in a tiny venue playing through backline with unamplified drums.
 
Having heard Proms in the RAH from all points in the building (including the Royal Box) It's certainly the case (imho) that the sound is better the lower you are, stalls being best.

If you want to hear orchestral music performed in a really good acoustic, I would say Birmingham's Symphony Hall is wonderful. I also enjoy Manchester's Bridgewater Hall, both successful venues built with modern, computer assisted acoustic design.

As a demonstration of how acoustics can be mucked up, even in a building designed for symphony concerts, look no further than the Royal Festival Hall of the 1950s. This was poor from the start and for many years was electronically enhanced to make it work even vaguely well. It's better now, following a rebuild, but still not brilliant. Indeed, I have a friend who worked for the Philharmonia for many years. She can tell you precisely where the good and bad seats are in the RFH!
 
I think even with modern knowledge and tools acoustics can be a bit hit and miss. I find the Barbican concert hall is very variable, depending on where you are seated.
 
I’ve always liked the sound at the Barbican, even rock stuff. I always aimed at fairly low down and central though.

The Liverpool Phil is good too, the whole building is designed as a horn. I still don’t like the sound at the back, but I don’t anywhere. I can’t think of any venue where I’d not chose to be central in the front third.
 
Tony L said:
I’ve always liked the sound at the Barbican, even rock stuff. I always aimed at fairly low down and central though.

The Liverpool Phil is good too, the whole building is designed as a horn. I still don’t like the sound at the back, but I don’t anywhere. I can’t think of any venue where I’d not chose to be central in the front third.
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I've never even been to a large venue. Well, discounting REM & Rush at diabolical arenas/ I erase these two nights from my mind. The biggest really being Brixton. One time the audio was passable: I got right to front to hear a Fugazi amp firing right at me (Picciotto's Rickenbacker > Park) thus avoiding the dreaded echo.

All of my shows (89-96) have been thankfully small venues 1000 or less, hopefully hearing the amps & drums right up close/ as they are, not spoiled even slightly was the aim, via being mic'd into the PA. But halcyon days now.

I must visit Gloucester cathedral for a carefully planned classical evening I think, whatever the cost involved.
 
The Captain said:
I must visit Gloucester cathedral for a carefully planned classical evening I think, whatever the cost involved.
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I’d personally head for a traditional classical venue rather than a church/cathedral as they tend to be massive reverb tanks with crazy-long delay times. Everything just turns to mush.

PS Up here in the north west I’m a big fan of RNCM which has nice purpose-designed performance spaces of varying sizes and a substantial supply of really good free stuff to sample. I’ve heard some great stuff there from the students plus a fair bit of proper full-price stuff. The free lunchtime concerts can be wonderful with lots of beautifully performed chamber music etc. The front row string quartet experience really is special.
 
I've been to the Proms quite a lot in the last five years or so. I don't really listen to classical much at home, but love it as live music. The talent and ability of the musicians is stunning, far ahead of most rock and pop musicians. As Tony says, the sound at the front of the stage is absolutely fine and that's where I usually prefer, but last week I chose high up cheap seats for Bruckner's 8th (80 mins, no interval) and the contrast in sound was stark. The high end was noticeably accentuated at the cost of the low end, maybe explained by the seat being restricted view with the bass sections invisible below, while the sound from the violins had uninterrupted travel. On the plus side, there was a better stereo effect.
 
Barrymagrec said:
The Albert Hall has long been considered to have poor acoustics and various improvements have been made over the years, including the floating baffles mentioned. Much less was known about concert hall acoustics when the hall was built in the late 1860s.
.
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I still think of them as "Flying Saucers". :) I used to go to Proms mumble decades ago when I lived in London. Still watch/listen every year now, but from our living room. Shame the iPlayer Videos from the BBC lost 320k aac a few years ago. The Engineers managed for some years to sneak that past the bean-counters by 'accidentally' enabling it. But the R3 feed is less tarted up and still 320k aac on iPlayer.

The point of the flags is that it is an *International* celebration of music and how it can enlighten and entertain people around the world via a shared emotional experience. Shows that whatever the type of music, and country or colour, we are all humans and feel love and pain. If Tories want Union flags included, then just bring them and wave them along side the rainbows and all the national ones. Meant to be inclusive, not exclusive. Enjoy the music.
 
Tony L said:
I wasn’t far enough away for acoustics to be much of an issue, only about 15 feet behind the conductor. The think the RAH’s well documented problems come in the multi-tiers of seating.
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Before Saucers an experience was that the combination of the curved roof and the seating rows tended to meant that parts like a loud trumpet solo were accompanied by a phantom 2nd player at the top-back of the hall who played a bit late. 8-] Ever since, they've experimented with newer saucers and adjusting their locations, etc.
 
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