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Back to the 80s...

Mr Pig said:
Yip, this is true. I've seen it many times. They think you don't notice or realize.

Years ago I took a friend to a Naim dem, I can't remember what new product it was. My friend had been a professional drummer and he brought a friend with him, a guy I didn't know. So the three of sat there as the Naim rep talked through the system and played the first track. After it finished the room was full of quietly nodding heads and murmurs of approval. My friend's friend piped up and said 'Actually, I didn't think it sounded very good.' It was horrifying and fantastic at the same time! Lot of shuffling and awkwardness. The Naim rep said 'Ok, what do you feel was wrong' and the guy gave a description of what he quite correctly identified as a fairly thin and harsh sound. No one in the room agreed with him, but he was right. His lack of indoctrination had allowed him to just listen to the music and judge it on face value.

A good lesson. Forget the reputation, forget the cost, just listen and think 'is this nice or not?'.
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Hilarious Colin,

Horrifying and Fantastic !

The penny dropped for me about Naim at my Statement event when Doug Graham from Naim who was a nice chap.
Said with the 552 -300 - 552 -500 into Focal Sopra 2's " So your down at your dealers and our Naim stuff is a drug and we are dealers.I want to hear some of this Super Lumina interconnect ...well here is what it does with the 552 - to 500" ....and he inserted some...just sounded smoother.2 grand better no way.
It was just blatant that throwaway line ...money...money ..money.
Give me Rega anyday.
 
Mr Pig said:
Yip, this is true. I've seen it many times. They think you don't notice or realize.

Years ago I took a friend to a Naim dem, I can't remember what new product it was. My friend had been a professional drummer and he brought a friend with him, a guy I didn't know. So the three of sat there as the Naim rep talked through the system and played the first track. After it finished the room was full of quietly nodding heads and murmurs of approval. My friend's friend piped up and said 'Actually, I didn't think it sounded very good.' It was horrifying and fantastic at the same time! Lot of shuffling and awkwardness. The Naim rep said 'Ok, what do you feel was wrong' and the guy gave a description of what he quite correctly identified as a fairly thin and harsh sound. No one in the room agreed with him, but he was right. His lack of indoctrination had allowed him to just listen to the music and judge it on face value.

A good lesson. Forget the reputation, forget the cost, just listen and think 'is this nice or not?'.
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I was at one of the early nDAC/Ovator demos and the sound was vile, shrill and not coherent at all, the room was to blame of course ;);)
 
Miss Ariel said:
" So your down at your dealers and our Naim stuff is a drug and we are dealers...
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This is the exact truth. The objective of manufacturers like Naim and their dealers is to get you hooked on upgrading. It's exactly the same with the LP12, all most users talk about is what new bit they're getting next. A Binky, Bonky or whatever the feck the next astronomically priced thing is.

But there is a limit to how good a record player or amplifier can get. So to get you to spend huge amounts of money or relatively small differences they have to redefine your definitions of quality and value. They have to mess with your mind until you accept that any audible difference at all, however small, is something you need and is worth whatever they say it is.

Just yesterday I said to someone on the LP12 facebook group, 'Why do you need to upgrade at all? If the system makes you love your music, isn't it job done?'.

Not what a dealer wants to hear. A few years ago I said to the owner of a Linn/Naim dealer 'I'm perfectly happy with my system as it is' and he threw up his hands in mock horror and said 'NooOOoo! That's no use to us at all'.

And that my dear chimps is the reality of the situation.
 
Mr Pig said:
This is the exact truth. The objective of manufacturers like Naim and their dealers is to get you hooked on upgrading. It's exactly the same with the LP12, all most users talk about is what new bit they're getting next. A Binky, Bonky or whatever the feck the next astronomically priced thing is.
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On reflection, I'm not sure I've ever been persuaded by the Naim dealer to upgrade. I would be invited to dems of new stuff, but never made to feel what I have was in any way inadequate. The thing for me, though, is the product always seems to make you want for more. Whether it's because fan-boys on the other forum rave about their next upgrade, or whether there is something missing for me, it was always me that wanted that next upgrade.

I would not blame the dealer. The Naim marketing machine is quite clever though ...
 
I went to a Naim demo last century. Naim CDP of the day, a bunch of amplifiers & shit, Naim speakers. Like the CDP, I forget the model.

Demo man toe tapped his toes & told the audience how much”emotion” there was, while pointing out how much the sound had improved as he ran through the amplifier & shit hierarchy.

I went home, turned on my cheapo used system, & put on a record. Ahhh, now here was music, not the coarse sounding noise of before.
 
I was mystified as to why anyone would build a system that made a piano sound like it was made of a cardboard box. But a dealer did it with an LP12/something cartridge/something Naim amplifier/ES14 speakers while insisting its farts smelled of roses.
 
I enjoyed my Naim experience.It’s been an important part of my journey. I had an Olive 82/180. Good stuff. But in retrospect I enjoyed my MF, NAD and Yamaha just as much. After listening to other gear I decided that it was unnecessarily expensive.
 
Miss Ariel said:
Talking of Linn and in the spirit of back in the 80's.
A mate worked at a shop where they shifted a lot of LP12's.
They where told by their Linn rep.When you do a dem to a prospective buyer make sure if sitting next to them on the dem room sofa to start tapping your arm - legs - nodding your head.
A classic PRAT sales spin.
Funny I witnessed exactly the same about 5 years ago at a Naim Statement event at a hotel evening from the Naim rep.When he pressed the button on his tablet to streamer and the music began he went into this nodding trance like state.What was even funnier guys obviously big spending Naimites where also doing it and leg tapping in my aisle of seats.
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I too witnessed the old foot tapping trick at dealer dems and HiFi shows years ago and it always made me chortle. Still makes me smile thinking of it 30 odd years on.
The one chap took it a bit further during his demo of his equipment racks at the shows. He was almost bouncing off the walls when he had his top of the range stand on dem, before that he was like a statue :)
 
Back then I thought the speakers were the most critical components. Then I met a guy who had a Well Tempered/Supex/Naim bundle/Lambert speakers. It sounded superb. Band in the room, good timbre. I asked him why he didn’t have an LP12 to go with the Naim. He replied he’d replaced one with the WT & that now he wouldn’t try to catch a Linn if it was thrown at him.
 
I bought my LP12 second hand 25ish years ago.
Apart from the arm, Basik LVX, and the Valhalla power supply
I have no idea what, if any, upgrades had been fitted.
I like it the way it is. Why would I want to change it?
It's just as well as I'm on a very limited budget.
I suppose poverty does have some upsides!

The last time I was in a hifi shop there was a Linn streamer and
speakers playing some music. Crystal clear treble and mids and
solid deep bass. Very Impressive. I'd still rather listen to my
system, it's not easy to explain but I just enjoy listening to
the music more, Maybe it's just familiarity but the streamer
sounded too hifi. Does that make sense? Maybe it's just me, who knows!

Regards Andy
 
Andy Stephenson said:
Hi Del, Would that have been Lintone Audio?

Regards Andy
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It surely was. I walked around the corner and shared my thoughts with the guy that was listening. Was really vital. That’s why I don’t slag off Naim. It has its merits. But I’m not sure whether it was the Naim or the ATC that was the star of the show!
 
Andy Stephenson said:
I'd still rather listen to my
system, it's not easy to explain but I just enjoy listening to
the music more, Maybe it's just familiarity but the streamer
sounded too hifi. Does that make sense?
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Yes, it does. A lot of modern Hi-Fi is so lacking in colour it is lacking in soul. Impressive but not musical.
 
DAPPER said:
Hmmm, the 80's hifi, wasn't that a time when some were being brainwashed into rubbish theories that e.g. if they put a small sheet of blank paper between some pages of books on their shelves it positively affected the sound?

Can't recall the name of the HIFI mag nutter who tried to make a career spouting such nonsense, I threw my 80's stack of hifi mags away years ago.
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Peter Belt?
 
It made me think about the valve/solid state argument.
Valves sound warmer, cuddlier!
Solid state sounds clearer, cleaner if you like.
Also a similar sort of thing with digital/analogue.
At the end of the day which sounds 'better' is down to personnal preference.

Regards Andy

Now that I'm thinking back.....
I can remember my mother's Radiogram in the 60s
wonderful tone, very nice to listen to and enjoy
but you wouldn't really call it hifi
 
Peter Belt was the supplier and 'inventor', but James Michael Hughes was his principal disciple IIRC. It all helped the slide of 'Hi-Fi Answers' from a mag with a technical slant to anything goes subjectivism.
 
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