Back to the 80s...

[Mr Pig]

I must admit, I've never found tone controls to be of much use in a properly set up system.

I use a Rotel with tone controls in the kitchen, despite having a better amp with no tone controls available, but only because the speakers are on shelves above the kitchen units, so about nine-feet up, so cranking the treble up lets you actually hear it!

But in a well set up system I've never found much benefit. If the system is say bass light, there is a problem so you identify that problem and fix it. If the treble on a recording is harsh a treble control won't fix it. They are too limited and blunt a tool to be of much use.

I don't have anything against them and I agree, an amplifier can both sound good and have tone controls, but if I'm looking at amplifiers they're not a consideration.

 

[wd40addict]

The Audiolab designs were the last to sneak through the door IMHO. All the one man and his dog biscuit tins that followed would have been ripped to shreds had they had tone controls. A lot of time they aren't necessary, and indeed my main system doesn't have them, but it would be nice to have them at hand for when some monkey at the desk has done the remastering.

 

[DAPPER]

Hmmm, the 80's hifi, wasn't that a time when some were being brainwashed into rubbish theories that e.g. if they put a small sheet of blank paper between some pages of books on their shelves it positively affected the sound?

Can't recall the name of the HIFI mag nutter who tried to make a career spouting such nonsense, I threw my 80's stack of hifi mags away years ago.

 

[Zombie]

I use the Tilt in the Artera pre, -2 suits me fine. But I really miss the bass lift in the 34/44, the first notch was perfect to give that subtle bass kick. The bass boost in later Quad preamps have only one step and is too boomy, but would have loved the old one to kick the 988s. Even had the idea to do surgery on the 99/Elite pre to get it.

 

[Andy Stephenson]

Like many of you, I grew up in the 70s reading Hi fi Answers, Popular Hi Fi, Hi Fi Choice etc.
and was indoctrinated with "British is best" and Japanese mass market stuff is rubbish.
Tone controls do nothing other than interfere with the pure reproduction of the music as it
is intended to be heard. There is some merit in that view, however as is more readily
recognised now music mastering isn't as good as it should be so tone controls do have a place.
Although I still like the concept of the Naim philosophy of Volume, selector and balance
controls and nothing else to get in the way of the music, in the real world this isn't always
enough.
The first time I saw the review of a Luxman Pre/power amp with those massive vu meters
I realised that, for me at least, the look of a piece of equipment is part of the attraction and
although sound quality will always come first, the aesthetics is part of the attraction.
If a Technics SE-A900 and SU-C900 came up for sale at a resonable price in decent condition
I can't say I wouldn't be tempted.

Regards Andy

 

[messengerman]

I seem to remember the most commonly quoted case against tone controls revolved round the notion that deleting them from a design released money that could then fund better components and build quality where it mattered. I think that line was repeated in virtually every amplifier review for a decade.

The irony of course is that many, if not most, of those feature free British amps never were better built and never did have better quality components and are now scrap while a great many of the supposedly "poorer quality" Japanese amps soldier on.

Another example of the power of a perfectly logical sounding proposition that in practice simply doesn't pan out. Like source first.

 

[Mr Pig]

The Audiolab designs were the last to sneak through the door IMHO. All the one man and his dog biscuit tins that followed would have been ripped to shreds had they had tone controls.

Yes, and rightly so because if you listened to a Naim or Exposure after an Audiolab it was very obvious which approach sounded the best. Loved the look of the Audiolab, nice piece of design, but sonicaly? No thanks.

 

[Hazelberry]

The Audiolab designs were the last to sneak through the door IMHO. All the one man and his dog biscuit tins that followed would have been ripped to shreds had they had tone controls. A lot of time they aren't necessary, and indeed my main system doesn't have them, but it would be nice to have them at hand for when some monkey at the desk has done the remastering.

Yes, it is.

I don't use tone controls to compensate for system issues: only to make shit recordings more listenable and enjoyable.

Edit: Yamaha's continuous (variable) loudness control works well for listening at low volumes.

 

[Mr Pig]

I seem to remember the most commonly quoted case against tone controls revolved round the notion that deleting them from a design released money that could then fund better components and build quality where it mattered.

I don't remember that. The argument I remember is that having unnecessary items in the signal path degraded the signal. You cannot improve the signal, only take away from it. Which is of course perfectly true.

I do agree that build quality of a lot of British kit was poor. The better brands were solid enough but there is no way we could compete with the might of the Japanese. If you look at a good Japanese turntable or big amplifier from that time, I don't think any UK company could have built them. Not at the price they retailed for anyway and most couldn't have built them at all.

But there was some truth on what was said. Things like the Planar 3 and LP12 did sound better than most imported decks. Yes, today it's trendy to say that some Japanese behemoths sound great but what is missed out is that these machines were very expensive when new. The Planar 3 was the best sounding deck available at its price.

And source first can't be dismissed so easily either. Yes, the notion was taken too far by dealers and some magazines, an LP12 with tiny budget speakers was a little mad, but the theory is fundamentally sound and has been the bedrock of countless systems ever since.

 

[messengerman]

Hmmm, the 80's hifi, wasn't that a time when some were being brainwashed into rubbish theories that e.g. if they put a small sheet of blank paper between some pages of books on their shelves it positively affected the sound?

Slightly off topic but my favourite piece of Eighties wibble, parroted by virtually all reviewers, was the nonsense about having other unpowered speakers in the room. Even the tiny speaker in a landline telephone, we were assured, noticeably degraded the sound.

Dealers of the day ended up having to remove all speakers from the demo rooms other than the the ones in use because those idiot journalists told their readers not to accept the presence of any unpowered magnets. I wonder whether that played some small part in killing the market for proper sized speakers?

 

[Mr Pig]

Slightly off topic but my favorite piece of Eighties wibble, parroted by virtually all reviewers, was the nonsense about having other unpowered speakers in the room. Even the tiny speaker in a landline telephone, we were assured, noticeably degraded the sound.

Linn were the worst. What I thought was hilarious was their insistence that other speakers in the room killed the sound, right up until the point when they realized that if they didn't make surround-sound systems they were going out of business! They then had to come up with some bollocksy technical reason why other speakers in the room were now ok, but only theirs of course.

 

[Amber Audio]

Slightly off topic but my favourite piece of Eighties wibble, parroted by virtually all reviewers, was the nonsense about having other unpowered speakers in the room. Even the tiny speaker in a landline telephone, we were assured, noticeably degraded the sound.

Dealers of the day ended up having to remove all speakers from the demo rooms other than the the ones in use because those idiot journalists told their readers not to accept the presence of any unpowered magnets. I wonder whether that played some small part in killing the market for proper sized speakers?

There was a downer on comparator switches too. One of the best demo’s we’ve had was Robert in Montrose walking up the Naim olive ladder using a comparator so simple switching of Pre amps to hear the differences quickly (I think he’d built it himself) and our ProAcs. We’d decided to go full bhuna on a 72/250 and the next week the car died and we had to put the dosh to a new one, such is life, got my Naim gear fix in a few years later though.

 

[ToTo Man]

The argument I remember is that having unnecessary items in the signal path degraded the signal. You cannot improve the signal, only take away from it. Which is of course perfectly true.

A strawman argument in many cases as the better quality amps that featured tone controls also provided a 'Tone Defeat' switch that the user could press to take the controls out of the signal path if desired. My modern Yamaha amp does this electronically by way of a centre detent on its Tone controls.

 

[Mr Pig]

A strawman argument in many cases as the better quality amps that featured tone controls also provided a 'Tone Defeat' switch that the user could press to take the controls out of the signal path if desired.

But the switch is still in circuit. Yes, I know, don't shoot me! I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this but that's what the argument was.

 

[messengerman]

I don't remember that. The argument I remember is that having unnecessary items in the signal path degraded the signal. You cannot improve the signal, only take away from it. Which is of course perfectly true.

Both arguments were commonly put forward at the time. The line about purer signal paths just had a much longer shelf life which is probably why you remember it.

As for component priorities I'm a source last person. Not least because modern rooms are often so bad accoustically that even live music would sound terrible in them. Even a modest £100 Dacmagic fed into amp/speakers that bring out the best in a good room will be far better than that the best sources ever made feeding any significantly sub optimal speaker / room.

Of course also having a great source is better still but getting the back end right is where the really big gains (and problems) lurk and is the most commonly missed opportunity in disappointing systems. How much money is wasted swapping out sources and amps when the speakers and or room are the actual limiting factor? Source first is a theory / strategy that I think has cost a lot of people a lot of wasted money.

 

[Andy Stephenson]

My previous post in this thread started me thinking (dangerous I know) -
does anyone else remember a countrywide exhibition/tour by Pioneer on a train
It was about 1974/5. It turned up for one day locally at The Central Station
Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and you could just go along and drool!
There were no demos, just showcasing the amps, tuners etc. available at the time.
Still lust after a SA 9500 II even though I've never owned or indeed even heard any
Pioneer gear.
As I understand it, Pioneer did make some of the gear supplied by
Tandy/Radio Shack under their Realistic brand name which I did own.

Just as well I'm not richer than I am, I would be in danger of becoming a bit of a hoarder!

Regards Andy

 

[messengerman]

Linn were the worst. What I thought was hilarious was their insistence that other speakers in the room killed the sound, right up until the point when they realized that if they didn't make surround-sound systems they were going out of business! They then had to come up with some bollocksy technical reason why other speakers in the room were now ok, but only theirs of course.

That is very funny. Presumably they glossed over the fact that TVs tend to have speakers in them. Or were Linn's marks , sorry I mean clients, instructed to use their surround sound systems only in ways that don't involve watching movies?

 

[Miss Ariel]

Talking of Linn and in the spirit of back in the 80's.
A mate worked at a shop where they shifted a lot of LP12's.
They where told by their Linn rep.When you do a dem to a prospective buyer make sure if sitting next to them on the dem room sofa to start tapping your arm - legs - nodding your head.
A classic PRAT sales spin.
Funny I witnessed exactly the same about 5 years ago at a Naim Statement event at a hotel evening from the Naim rep.When he pressed the button on his tablet to streamer and the music began he went into this nodding trance like state.What was even funnier guys obviously big spending Naimites where also doing it and leg tapping in my aisle of seats.

 

[chartz]

This is my preamp (this photo not mine).
I find the tone controls very useful actually.
When tone controls are disengaged then there are no caps on the signal path.

 

[Andy Stephenson]

These posts underline the need to find a good dealer you can trust.
A dealer that pushes you in a direction you don't want to go or one
that just agrees with everything you say just to get a sale are as my
old Granny used to say "Neither use nor ornament!"
All this reinforces how important home demos are, in your own room
with the rest of your own gear.
Anyone who demos something and expects it to sound the same with
different partnering equipment and a different room shouldn't really
be surprised when it doesn't sound the same.

Regards Andy