Are differences just in our heads or just mine?

[S-Man]

Telling someone what they do or don't hear is just plain stupid. If you don't hear a difference, that doesn't mean no one else does just because you can't. It doesn't make them idiots or delusional, for the most part anyway.
.

That's not quite what the naysayers are stating. They are saying that you cannot possibly hear any difference because the measurements are all the same and if you believe you can hear a difference then you are delusional.

Right then, I'll get me straight jacket....

 

[Avonessence]

I suppose that my findings with the Rotal RA820 do point out one thing, with high efficiency speakers you certainly do not need all the power in the world to drive/control them, and the differences between amps is marginal (and certainly not worth the difference financially).
From memory the differences with the Zu speakers with different Naim amps were also marginal, there was not much between a NAP150, NAP200, NAP250.2 and a NAP300, to be honest the best match/balance all-round (to my ears) was the NAP200 out of these different power amps.

I can only conclude, based on the posts so far (and my humble experience thus far), that the matching of amplifier to the speaker is the most important aspect (in this particular part of the system), to obtain the right balance for continued musical enjoyment.

 

[Gaius]

I suppose that my findings with the Rotal RA820 do point out one thing, with high efficiency speakers you certainly do not need all the power in the world to drive/control them, and the differences between amps is marginal (and certainly not worth the difference financially).
From memory the differences with the Zu speakers with different Naim amps were also marginal, there was not much between a NAP150, NAP200, NAP250.2 and a NAP300, to be honest the best match/balance all-round (to my ears) was the NAP200 out of these different power amps.
QUOTE]

There's a lot of truth in that, in old money the 200=180=160 in the range.

The differences ARE marginal but it is folly for those who think ALL amps sound the same......

 

[darrylfunk]

The differences ARE marginal but it is folly for those who think ALL amps sound the same......

just out of interest can you list the names of the forum users who claim this please as we do see a lot of mentions of it but who are we talking about?

 

[Gaius]

darry, I'm not making aqusations here, in places the tone of this thread has been that there is no difference in amps and I'm saying I don't think so but agree differences can be marginal sometimes.

 

[flatpopely]

darry, I'm not making aqusations here, in places the tone of this thread has been that there is no difference in amps and I'm saying I don't think so but agree differences can be marginal sometimes.

Indeed they can be marginal but still of value.

I certainly don't subscribe to the all amps sound the same ethos.

Even the people in my office heard the difference when I changed from a Denon DM31 to a NAIT using the same source and speakers.

 

[Gaius]

Indeed.

 

[dim_span]

those who say that all amps sound the same speak bollocks

I have a few older amps here at home .... my main system sounds different with each one ... even with the amps that have the same or similar power rating and that is tested using the same speakers, same speaker cables, same cdp, same interconnect and same track from the same cd

 

[darrylfunk]

who are the people on the forum who say all amps sound the same though, it's a simple question?
i'm not asking for anecdotes about "even my wifes budgie heard the improvement" as then someone will come along and ask if the volumes where matched etc....

i just want to know which pfm members say all amps sound the same ????

 

[Gaius]

Not me matey and I'll kick off your poll

 

[louballoo]

who are the people on the forum who say all amps sound the same though, it's a simple question?
i'm not asking for anecdotes about "even my wifes budgie heard the improvement" as then someone will come along and ask if the volumes where matched etc....

i just want to know which pfm members say all amps sound the same ????

As I have posted elsewhere...........

If they bench test the same they will sound the same. There is nothing the human ear can hear that can't be shown with modern test gear.


Louballoo

 

[Avonessence]

There is nothing the human ear can hear that can't be shown with modern test gear. Louballoo

On this statement I would beg to differ.

In my experience, if items of equipment tests (using modern analytical instrumentation) the same, then there will be some sonic variances between them.

 

[Stu_cj]

As I have posted elsewhere...........

If they bench test the same they will sound the same. There is nothing the human ear can hear that can't be shown with modern test gear.


Louballoo

IMO the only amps that would measure the same would be two identical amps of the same model, and yes they would sound the same.

In reality any two amps of different construction would sound at least marginally if not grossly different. If they measure the same then the measurements are flawed or incomplete in their analysis.

 

[louballoo]

On this statement I would beg to differ.

In my experience, if items of equipment tests (using modern analytical instrumentation) the same, then there will be some sonic variances between them.

I think we said the same thing.

If the ears can hear a difference, then the test equipment can identify the difference.

Louballoo

 

[stu pitt]

On this statement I would beg to differ.

In my experience, if items of equipment tests (using modern analytical instrumentation) the same, then there will be some sonic variances between them.

Is there a way to measure soundstage height, width and depth? Is there a way to measure the wall of sound approach vs a 3D image? What about air and space around instruments? What about the perceived size of instruments?

Do those not exist? Yes, they'll be different in different rooms, but a simple A/B of my Bryston B60 and a Nait 5i in a dealer's place with everything else remaining the same showed the differences in those regards that I haven't seen a measurement of, plus a few other things.

 

[Avonessence]

I think we said the same thing.

If the ears can hear a difference, then the test equipment can identify the difference.

Louballoo

I think there is a misunderstanding:

If the human ear can hear a difference, then in my experience the modern test equipment is not able to detect this difference.

 

[norriemal]

Back in the early 70's a balanced system spent 50% of the budget on speakers then along came the Linn Sondek and 50% was to be targeted at the front end.

Unless I've missed something in the last 40 years no one has ever suggested throwing 50% of your budget at the amps.

Better engineered front ends can reproduce a more involving music experience but cost rises steeply. Most people can hear this. As with speakers the same arguments can be made.

With digital sources all the information is there and DACs will probably converge on a better music experience at a lower price point as technology matures.

Given the premise that dacs and amps sound the same then we have come full circle and we should be spending 50% of our budget on speakers again as this is where different/better engineering will make the most improvements and faithfully reproduce the music we all crave.

But... you have as much chance statistically of winning the lottery with the numbers 1 to 6 as with any other numbers. The brain must accept this logically but we know in our hearts and souls thats not the way it works. Amps (and dacs) are like that.

 

[darrylfunk]

Is there a way to measure soundstage height, width and depth? Is there a way to measure the wall of sound approach vs a 3D image? What about air and space around instruments? What about the perceived size of instruments?

Do those not exist? Yes, they'll be different in different rooms, but a simple A/B of my Bryston B60 and a Nait 5i in a dealer's place with everything else remaining the same showed the differences in those regards that I haven't seen a measurement of, plus a few other things.

use logic - these two amps measure totally different so you would expect them to sound totally different.

you are dealing with the same recording which, if you like is the answer or measurement of the real life session.
so you kind of have your question round the wrong way.
think of the recording as the accurate measurement then the amp adds or subtracts certain distortions to it/from it and that's what you end up with coming out of your speakers.
that's why i say the amp that reveals the most differences between different recordings is the most transparent amp.

 

[sonddek]

But... you have as much chance statistically of winning the lottery with the numbers 1 to 6 as with any other numbers.

I don't know how the lottery works and I've never played it, but this statement appears to me to be obviously false, except in the trivial post hoc analysis sense. If you limit the numbers you choose to a narrower range than the range the winning numbers will be chosen from, then you definitely have a lesser chance of winning. If that's not what you meant, then what did you mean?

 

[norriemal]

Sorry Sondek

49 balls are drawn - you choose 6 numbers from 1 to 49. The point is any numerical sequence has the same chance of being drawn. So the first ball could be a 1 the second a 2 the third a 3 etc. The fact that the numbers are sequential is statistically irrelevant.

But something inside us tells us that choosing sequential numbers would reduce any chances of winning. It is what we believe - rightly or wrongly.