Are differences just in our heads or just mine?
- Thread starter Avonessence
- Start date
Don't EVER sell your B&W DM2A's! I regard the B&W DM2's one of the greatest speakers ever produced! Mine are beautifully polished with added bees wax and wood strains to a high gloss. The front speaker grille boards refoamed and ' further acoustically treated and deadened '
Mucking around one day thinking how I could change this or that in my various systems with all the equipment I own - in a moment of absolute heresy- I decided to fire up these speakers coupled with the original Pioneer A 400 amp.
What a synergy! For 2 channel sound, this could easily be my contented Desert Island choice for the rest of my life. Magic is possible! I actually eagerly anticipate what it is going to deliver, the moment just before switching on. I am never disappointed.
It all depends with Hi- Fi people: what degree type amplifier distortion they like and by what amount, is the big question to consider.
Greg
2t5b
Class A also differs from Class B in a similar regard.
Robert
Tapehead
Absolutely right.
Doug Self expands the argument further in his excellent book on amplifier design where he describes some basic competency criteria for amplifiers.
Depart from basic competency and you can certainly get amplifiers to sound different and to some listeners different = better - subjectively.
This subjective 'better' is not to be confused with basic accuracy though, which can be measured, demonstrated and relies on certain technical criteria being met.
I posted a copy article on ZG recently comparing many different amplifiers from cheap NADs and Pioneer receivers through to high end stuff under blind test conditions. Makes very interesting reading:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/q55iszswt7j5pz6/Amp_Sound.pdf
Robert
Tapehead
You should always try IMO.
if it becomes obvious that you are talking to a brick wall, then is the time to stop.
Like most things THD spec is meaningless really as a means of comparison - exactly which harmonics are being summed to give the Total harmonic figure? One amp could have more 2nd harmonic distortion and another amp have more 3rd but give the same THD figure theoretically. Then it depends at which output power and frequency it is measured at, it is normally only quoted x Watts and at 1kHz or something - what about 100Hz or 10kHz and every frequency and volume in between
Sure on some material and in certain systems there can be surprisingly little difference between 2 amplifiers, but to say thay all sound the same when driven within spec is just nonsense.
This is perfectly true where the THD figure is relatively high. However even budget amplifiers get THD down below 0.05% and often far lower.
At these levels you cannot hear it - even if it were to comprise the most objectionable and nasty high order stuff.
Same for IMD and we can get that down to low levels.
This is why two amplifiers with a different distortion spectra can sound the same. They both meet the minimum standard bar.
What is certainly important is that measurements on power amplifiers are done using a simulated speaker load, and not just an 8 ohm resistor.
S-Man
StrivingON
Doug Self has generated some useful reference information, however it does not mean his designs actually sound good. In addition, he makes mistakes - take a look at his original articles about the importance of balanced currents in the LTP, then notice that he never thought to take the base current of the VAS into account. Fairly poor engineering, but he is so conviced he is right he fails to notice the obvious.
An open mind can be useful, a closed one less so. IMO.
BTW, another well respected designer stated on PFM that the 840A sounds better with XD turned off. I know who's amp I would rather spend my money on!
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
A Rotel RX602 was my first introduction to an amp. Loved it.
I was also at the UK show when the 820 was introduced, sounded superb.
However I have had chance to compare a modest modern Marantz in my system and it was enjoyable but nowhere compared to the regular amps
I was also at the UK show when the 820 was introduced, sounded superb.
However I have had chance to compare a modest modern Marantz in my system and it was enjoyable but nowhere compared to the regular amps
Even more LOL!
I must try that...only converse with peeps who agree with me. That's the NY resolution sorted then..
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
I restored a vintage Pioneer C-21 preamplifier recently and was really surprised how good it sounded compared to my Densen B-250.
The only downside is the lack of remote, but the music that it produces has plenty of body, drive (balls) and boogie. I switch between the two preamps from time to time. I think if I should find a nice open-reel deck (the Densen does not permit real-time monitoring) and/or get a second TT (direct-drive vintage), the Densen could be on permanent leave from duty.
James
The only downside is the lack of remote, but the music that it produces has plenty of body, drive (balls) and boogie. I switch between the two preamps from time to time. I think if I should find a nice open-reel deck (the Densen does not permit real-time monitoring) and/or get a second TT (direct-drive vintage), the Densen could be on permanent leave from duty.
James
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
That's the ugly truth. If you've got speakers of ~86dB sensitivity or less, and an amp with a double-digit power rating, clipping is gonna happen sometimes.
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
Them's the beauty of poly-amplification. In the unlikely situation I run out of watts driving my woofers (125W into 88dB/2.83V/m), the independently amplified mids and tweets (60W each) would be unsullied by clippage of the big Densen monoblocks.
James
I've seen this argument several times. One thing I've never seen is someone define exactly what a well made amplifier really is. Where do crap, mediocre, and good/well made split? Walmart house brand, then Sony/Technics, then Onkyo/Denon, then NAD/Rotel, then Naim/Bryston, ... Just trying to figure out at what level the well made stuff is.
I've heard all wires sound the same, all amps sound the same (properly driven), and the latest - all DACs sound the same. Out of curiosity - where do the differences lie, excluding room acoustics? Speakers and preamps? Or do all preamps sound the same too?
I hate to admit it, because it has cost me more money and made me reverse my decision once or twice, but everything makes a difference in my experience.
Telling someone what they do or don't hear is just plain stupid. If you don't hear a difference, that doesn't mean no one else does just because you can't. It doesn't make them idiots or delusional, for the most part anyway.
Just because I hear differences in just about everything doesn't make me any more or less enlightened than anyone who doesn't. Everyone listens for different things. Just like a painting/picture, everyone focuses on different aspects of it.
I've heard all wires sound the same, all amps sound the same (properly driven), and the latest - all DACs sound the same. Out of curiosity - where do the differences lie, excluding room acoustics? Speakers and preamps? Or do all preamps sound the same too?
I hate to admit it, because it has cost me more money and made me reverse my decision once or twice, but everything makes a difference in my experience.
Telling someone what they do or don't hear is just plain stupid. If you don't hear a difference, that doesn't mean no one else does just because you can't. It doesn't make them idiots or delusional, for the most part anyway.
Just because I hear differences in just about everything doesn't make me any more or less enlightened than anyone who doesn't. Everyone listens for different things. Just like a painting/picture, everyone focuses on different aspects of it.