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Scottish Politics II

PsB said:
Scotland, were it to re-join the EU soon after independence,
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But is there a way past a seemingly inevitable Spanish veto? (They don't want to encourage the Catalans and Basques any more than they are already).
 
tones said:
But is there a way past a seemingly inevitable Spanish veto? (They don't want to encourage the Catalans and Basques any more than they are already).
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Can you stand up the ‘inevitable Spanish veto’? Out of all the third party speculation, that’s the one that never seemed to hold much water to me.
 
tones said:
But is there a way past a seemingly inevitable Spanish veto? (They don't want to encourage the Catalans and Basques any more than they are already).
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The Spanish government has stated many times they would not object to Scotland joining the EU as long as the separation from England and the provinces was performed constitutionally and legally. This differs from the recent basque example.
 
tones said:
But is there a way past a seemingly inevitable Spanish veto? (They don't want to encourage the Catalans and Basques any more than they are already).
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Google is your pal

In February 2012, Spanish foreign minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo made this categorical denial of the veto myth: "If the two parts of the United Kingdom are in agreement that it is in accord with their constitutional arrangement, written or unwritten, Spain would have nothing to say. We would simply maintain that it does not affect us."

In case that wasn't clear enough, he added: "The constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom are one thing, those of Spain another, and it is their own business if they decide to separate from one another."​
 
PsB said:
May slammed that door shut 4 years ago.
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She did with her stupid "leave anything with Euro in the title" bit but the window did reopen with the indicative votes. Unfortunately enough pro-EU groups either abstained or voted against going for a CU for it to fail.
And yes, plenty of Tories voted against as well but I wouldn't have expected anything else.
 
Amber Audio said:
Google is your pal

In February 2012, Spanish foreign minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo made this categorical denial of the veto myth: "If the two parts of the United Kingdom are in agreement that it is in accord with their constitutional arrangement, written or unwritten, Spain would have nothing to say. We would simply maintain that it does not affect us."

In case that wasn't clear enough, he added: "The constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom are one thing, those of Spain another, and it is their own business if they decide to separate from one another."​
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It was pulled out of thin air by the Brexit/ anti-Scottish independence lobby with all the solidity of a Harry Enfield ‘ooh, wouldn’t do that!’ sketch. Why? Desperation to present a united all Britain face to the EU when the reality was voters in Scotland and Northern Ireland wanted to stay in the European Union.
 
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Colin L said:
The Spanish government has stated many times they would not object to Scotland joining the EU as long as the separation from England and the provinces was performed constitutionally and legally. This differs from the recent basque example.
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Thank you, didn't know that, I stand corrected.
 
tones said:
But is there a way past a seemingly inevitable Spanish veto? (They don't want to encourage the Catalans and Basques any more than they are already).
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Colin L said:
The Spanish government has stated many times they would not object to Scotland joining the EU as long as the separation from England and the provinces was performed constitutionally and legally. This differs from the recent basque example.
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Which means it ( a referendum ) will have to be with agreement of the tory UK govt. If the tories agree, it is nailed on and sensible to require a supermajority in favour of change.
 
Brian said:
Which means it ( a referendum ) will have to be with agreement of the tory UK govt. If the tories agree, it is nailed on and sensible to require a supermajority in favour of change.
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Are you the same Brian who has spent the last 4 years defending the Brexit vote without a supermajority?
 
Brian’s all for democracy as long as it gives him what he wants. There’s a word for that.
 
rbrown said:
Are you the same Brian who has spent the last 4 years defending the Brexit vote without a supermajority?
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The rules of the referendum in 2016 were decided ahead of the vote and understood by the voters. A simple majority was required. Note that we’ve been reminded for nearly 5 years now the EU has rules that must be followed because everyone apparently understands them. Rules are rules. You can’t pick and choose which rules you want to follow and which you don’t, that would be ‘cake and eat it’.

I will say for the umpteenth time, brexit had to happen because leaving the EU was the outcome of a democratic referendum and we understood the rules. Democracy is what I have been defending against the ‘Trumpism’ of the hard remainers, who fought tooth and nail to have the referendum result ignored. That’s not difficult to understand, so no accusations of not writing a clear post.

So, on to the idea of a referendum on independence for Scotland. There are very clear lessons from 2016 and what has happened since that referendum. Surely you aren’t so stupid as to learn no lessons from the problems caused by a simple majority being sufficient for such a massive change? Do you think because the referendum in 2016 needed a simple majority, any vote on Scottish independence should also require just a simple majority? If that’s your view then fair enough, you’re entitled to it. My view is to learn from 2016 and a supermajority should be required of at least 2/3rd for such a change. I’m entitled to that view.
 
Rather strange that Labour’s Anas Sarwar didn’t stand in the election by the Scottish Parliament for First Minister yesterday, leaving it to the plucky LibDem, Willie Rennie and the Tory leader, Ross Murray.
Murray Ross was at least realistic about his prospects: "I know there is literally more chance of one of my cows fulfilling the nursery rhyme of jumping over the moon than there is of me winning this vote today, but that doesn't mean we can't try."

God loves a trier- Sarwar looked in through the window, Ross tried to climb through it and Rennie stood licking it.
 
I think really close outcomes of binary votes are not desirable however both sides go into these things with their eyes open but supermajority my arse.
 
Spraggons Den said:
I think really close outcomes of binary votes are not desirable however both sides go into these things with their eyes open but supermajority my arse.
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To continue the analogy, two of our friends outside of Scotland are peering in through the window but one of them is also licking it.
 
Brian said:
The rules of the referendum in 2016 were decided ahead of the vote and understood by the voters. A simple majority was required. Note that we’ve been reminded for nearly 5 years now the EU has rules that must be followed because everyone apparently understands them. Rules are rules. You can’t pick and choose which rules you want to follow and which you don’t, that would be ‘cake and eat it’.

I will say for the umpteenth time, brexit had to happen because leaving the EU was the outcome of a democratic referendum and we understood the rules. Democracy is what I have been defending against the ‘Trumpism’ of the hard remainers, who fought tooth and nail to have the referendum result ignored. That’s not difficult to understand, so no accusations of not writing a clear post.

So, on to the idea of a referendum on independence for Scotland. There are very clear lessons from 2016 and what has happened since that referendum. Surely you aren’t so stupid as to learn no lessons from the problems caused by a simple majority being sufficient for such a massive change? Do you think because the referendum in 2016 needed a simple majority, any vote on Scottish independence should also require just a simple majority? If that’s your view then fair enough, you’re entitled to it. My view is to learn from 2016 and a supermajority should be required of at least 2/3rd for such a change. I’m entitled to that view.
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Neither the rules of, nor the potential outcome of the referendum were known by the voters. it was an advisory referendum that suddenly became binding. The type of departure from the EU was known to nobody, least of all Brexiteers, most of whom specifically ruled out the type of Brexit we ended up with. The referendum was marred by dark money foreign money and illegal activity by Vote Leave to such an extent that had the result been formally binding the Electoral Commission would have declared in null and void.

Brexit was is and has always been a ultra right-wing Tory initiative. I'm happy for you that you got the result you wanted Brian. Well done and I hope you are enjoying this Tory government that resulted and the many more that will follow. You state you are a labour supporter so this must all be a spectacular own-goal for you. Again, well done.
 
And nobody knows for definate (LoD spelling) what an independent Scotland will look like but, much like Brexit for the English, the overriding goal of separation is paramount.
 
Addressing the thread topic, Scottish politics, everyone will have seen this story about Johnson’s ITU nurse quitting the NHS over the derisory 1% pay offer against a backdrop of populist gesture politics. She was invited to Downing St not for a simple thank you but to participate in a political stage managed ‘clap for NHS workers’ photo call with Johnson, ie to benefit Johnson.

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Contrast that with the 4% pay award to NHS workers in Scotland. Labour can’t deliver this elsewhere in the U.K. and they couldn’t deliver it here- it was left to the Scottish Government to do the right thing.
 
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