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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

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The bit of Islington you describe is a tiny fraction of the borough (literally one street!) and not representative at all. Like most parts of inner London of it is mostly estates, struggling/underfunded schools and hospitals and social problems and is from that point of view very similar to neighbouring boroughs like Hackney and Newham.

On the clothes thing, for working class people how you dress matters a lot and in my experience there has always been a strong culture of looking smart amongst working class men, although it's often far less important for women. Oddly, again in my experience, this is the opposite of how it works with the middle classes where the women are the ones who care about clothes and the men are the ones who by and large consider it a badge of pride in not caring about what clothes they wear.

Regarding Starmer, I think his main problem has been the same as Corbyn's and he has mostly just been uninspiring and shown a lack of leadership. He's really good at the lawyerly stuff like making Johnson look stupid at PMQs (which Miliband was also good at fwiw) but not much else. In retrospect, awful Centrist Dads like me were wrong to think that him being presentable and competent and not having Corbyn's obvious media and popularity problems would be enough to turn Labour's fortunes around.

So I am left with my original reaction of really not knowing what Labour can do next other than letting out a weary sigh when most of Labour go back to their default positions of blaming The Left! or The Right!
I don't think it's possible to generalise about the dress sense of the working class. Some of the peopleI know from my home town are proper scruffs. Beer guts under tautly stretched football tops abound. To be honest I've no idea why we're even discussing this stuff.

As far as the rest of your post goes, the one thing I would love to bring back from the New Labour era is a leader with Tony Blair's killer instinct. An equally effective media strategy would also be good but you have to be careful with that because people are (rightly) more suspicious of over-slick presentation these days.
 
It works both ways: the problem with Labour is just as much the right wing as it is the left wing. Both sides now despise each other, as this thread has demonstrated for years now, and have fought each other to a standstill.

That doesn't diminish the truth of your second paragraph. Labour will remain unelectable as long as its constituent factions prefer fighting each other to fighting the Conservatives.
There is no symmetry: they haven’t fought each other to a standstill, the right have won. They keep punching the corpse because what has actually brought them to a standstill is reality, and they cannot win that fight.
 
I don’t think they were ‘unprecedented’, Kinnock always had a torrid time & the media really went after Blair (& his wife) in a way they wouldn’t or couldn’t today.

I agree the media went for JC but I think they do the same for anyone who is not a Tory.
Neither had their own MPs calling them a traitor who would turn us all into Lesbian jihadists on TV every day.
 
I don't think it's possible to generalise about the dress sense of the working class. Some of the peopleI know from my home town are proper scruffs. Beer guts under tautly stretched football tops abound. To be honest I've no idea why we're even discussing this stuff.

Indeed. Has Boris Johnson's frankly laughable dress sense ever done him any harm with the media, or with voters?
 
Neither had their own MPs calling them a traitor who would turn us all into Lesbian jihadists on TV every day.

The stick used against Miliband was that he was 'not really British' (code for 'Jewish'). With Corbyn, the stick suddenly became anti-semitism. The hypocrisy and double-standards displayed by almost all of the British press are quite breathtaking.
 
Islington is an incredibly diverse borough. There are plenty of very well off people living there but it also has a child poverty rate of 43%.
.

It’s amazing that such high levels of child poverty are tolerated, even if people do not care about the kids, I am sure there are plenty of people who don’t , the opportunity cost due to low educational achievement, increased crime and cost of incarceration that inevitably follows ought to make it unacceptable.
 
I just love the way the Labour left are calling for more Corbynism because things are going bad under Starmer.

You know that brand of politics that saw Labour get crushed at the last election. It’s like they want Labour to be forever unelectable and irrelevant. If I didn’t laugh I’d cry.
 
I just love the way the Labour left are calling for more Corbynism because things are going bad under Starmer.

You know that brand of politics that saw Labour get crushed at the last election. It’s like they want Labour to be forever unelectable and irrelevant. If I didn’t laugh I’d cry.
The last election was on Thursday, when actual reanimated Blairites got absolutely rinsed. Most of the exceptions were following Corbynite strategies. Personally I’m not calling for more Corbynism because it’s not going to happen: I’m calling for people to take a good look at the zombies running the Labour Party.

No way have you ever voted Labour, by the way!
 
The last election was on Thursday, when actual reanimated Blairites got absolutely rinsed. Most of the exceptions were following Corbynite strategies. Personally I’m not calling for more Corbynism because it’s not going to happen: I’m calling for people to take a good look at the zombies running the Labour Party.

No way have you ever voted Labour, by the way!

The last GE was 2019 when Corbyn was leader. The local election didn’t go well on Thursday whoever may be to blame. I think that the party’s biggest problem is that they’ve lost a lot of their working class voters and need to reconnect with them. It’s more than who the leader is and some war between left and right. Until the party work it out and stop being in denial, they will continue losing elections.

I’ve voted Labour every single time with the exception of 2010 when I voted for Clegg and his tuition fees lie.

That’s another attack of the Labour left. If you don’t support them you’re not a Labour voter. No wonder people are put off because of the nastiness!
 
Neither had their own MPs calling them a traitor who would turn us all into Lesbian jihadists on TV every day.
Corbyn didn’t have his wife door stepped when she went to the door in her dressing gown, neither was her mouth likened to the new Lords press box on HIGNFY. I seem to recall Kinnock had a Turnip photoshopped onto his head for a Sun front page. We can all pick examples to support our position but I just don’t agree that JC was uniquely effected.

I wasn’t aware of the lesbian jihadists. Is that a thing?
 
It’s amazing that such high levels of child poverty are tolerated, even if people do not care about the kids, I am sure there are plenty of people who don’t , the opportunity cost due to low educational achievement, increased crime and cost of incarceration that inevitably follows ought to make it unacceptable.
I think people don’t care about other peoples kids, that is the issue.
 
Corbyn didn’t have his wife door stepped when she went to the door in her dressing gown, neither was her mouth likened to the new Lords press box on HIGNFY. I seem to recall Kinnock had a Turnip photoshopped onto his head for a Sun front page. We can all pick examples to support our position but I just don’t agree that JC was uniquely effected.

I wasn’t aware of the lesbian jihadists. Is that a thing?
Sorry but this is nonsense. The press camped out on Corbyn's doorstep every ****ing day despite him pleading with them not to out of consideration for his neighbours. His treatment by the press and by his own MPs was vile and a stain on our democracy.
 
I don't think it's possible to generalise about the dress sense of the working class. Some of the peopleI know from my home town are proper scruffs. Beer guts under tautly stretched football tops abound. To be honest I've no idea why we're even discussing this stuff.

I know, that's why I was careful to stress this was in my experience. We are discussing it because it came up, although I don't think anyone thinks its a make or break issue.
 
Sorry but this is nonsense. The press camped out on Corbyn's doorstep every ****ing day despite him pleading with them not to out of consideration for his neighbours.

…and all they ever got for it was a thoroughly rude, petulant and evasive “hello, thank you, good bye”. He very seldom engaged and almost never actually answered questions put to him. Many of which were perfectly legitimate IMHO.

I do absolutely understand the harassment aspect, but I very firmly believe in political accountability and have zero respect for people we pay very good money to represent us evading or dodging any questions put to them short of very personal attacks (e.g. wife, family etc). Anything relating to policy, party or political perspective needs to be dealt with honestly as we are paying for it. Don’t like the scrutiny? Then don’t take the job.
 
Poor, hard working journalists - all they ever wanted was to serve the public by holding the opposition to power to account!
 
…and all they ever got for it was a thoroughly rude, petulant and evasive “hello, thank you, good bye”. He very seldom engaged and almost never actually answered questions put to him. Many of which were perfectly legitimate IMHO.

I do absolutely understand the harassment aspect, but I very firmly believe in political accountability and have zero respect for people we pay very good money to represent us evading or dodging any questions put to them short of very personal attacks (e.g. wife, family etc). Anything relating to policy, party or political perspective needs to be dealt with honestly as we are paying for it. Don’t like the scrutiny? Then don’t take the job.
Camping out on a politicians doorway day after day, each hack shouting a different question at the same time, has nothing to do with political accountability.
 
Poor, hard working journalists - all they ever wanted was to serve the public by holding the opposition to power to account!

I’m certainly not suggesting all journalists are impartial or decent, but if we are paying a political party’s wage they can legitimately be expected to answer the question IMHO. We have as much right to an honest answer as to what Corbyn thought on Brexit, on the anti-Semitism report etc as we do when asking why Matt Hancock has handed £millions of our money to his barman, or why Robert Jenrick very deliberately engineered a situation where a Tory donor evaded £millions in tax. We have a fundamental right to political transparency and scrutiny. That both parties can so successfully evade and slither away from the spotlight is all part of the same systemic failure and lack of democracy. The whole system is unfit for purpose.
 
Corbyn didn’t have his wife door stepped when she went to the door in her dressing gown, neither was her mouth likened to the new Lords press box on HIGNFY. I seem to recall Kinnock had a Turnip photoshopped onto his head for a Sun front page. We can all pick examples to support our position but I just don’t agree that JC was uniquely effected.

I wasn’t aware of the lesbian jihadists. Is that a thing?

Miliband was mocked for the way he ate a bacon butty.

So JC definitely isn’t uniquely effected. The press is just another thing his supporters blame for his disastrous leadership. It’s anyone but the man himself.
 
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