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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

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But he had to appeal to the whole of the country

Islington is an incredibly diverse borough. There are plenty of very well off people living there but it also has a child poverty rate of 43%.

Good article on what life is like for many of the poorer residents of Islington.

I wasn't much of a fan of Corbyn as party leader but friends who have lived in Islington tell me that he was an absolutely brilliant MP and I can well believe it.
 
In fairness that’s not what I was doing. I was simply pointing out that wealthy public school types such as the Corbyns don’t necessarily do the ‘ultra smart business suit’ thing. I wasn’t attacking him for it either. I believe very much in personal freedom/freedom of expression etc. I had punk/goth mates who were regularly beaten up for the way they looked so have tried to learn from that and be entirely non-judgemental. We obviously need to remember Sophie Lancaster too. That is the inevitable result of an ultra-conservative mindset towards personal expression in some quarters. FWIW I was sticking up for Angela Rayner because she’s clearly an indie kid, not because she’s allegedly of any given social class.

PS I do hate wearing a suit, but it is the conformity/corporate dictatorship aspect of it that I reject. Miles Davis, Modern Jazz Quartet etc looked great wearing them!
Not you, that’s all fair enough. The angry one.
 
Islington is an incredibly diverse borough. There are plenty of very well off people living there but it also has a child poverty rate of 43%.

Good article on what life is like for many of the poorer residents of Islington.

I wasn't much of a fan of Corbyn as party leader but friends who have lived in Islington tell me that he was an absolutely brilliant MP and I can well believe it.
I am sure he is a great MP, he is just not a leader & it appears that (in political terms) neither is Starmer.

It is easy to fall into the trap that everyone in London is ‘well off’ when the opposite is true; look at Kensinton & Chelsea for example. This is the reverse of the ‘grim up north’ narrative which is often assumed by our southern friends.

I will be going for a ride out in the Peak District later, even though Sheffield is most well known for it’s steel it is actually 2/3 green space & a very pleasant place to live. All areas have a mixed demographic & there is a high percentage of home ownership ‘up north’ which will probably keep the Tories in for a good while yet.
 
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The Labour Party has been attacking itself more or less from day one; the first Labour PM very quickly became a hate figure. Right and left factions have been fighting like cats in a sack for as long as I can remember. Harold Wilson spent much of his time as PM trying to hold the Party together and getting shot by both sides in the process.
This is true, though it is also true to say that the attacks have risen to another level more recently to the extent that the right have actively campaigned against Labour victory in 2019 not just with the more public manifestations like AS, but the more subtle use of their control over finances to work against the leadership by diverting money from key marginals to bolster already safe seats.
 
This is true, though it is also true to say that the attacks have risen to another level more recently to the extent that the right have actively campaigned against Labour victory in 2019 not just with the more public manifestations like AS, but the more subtle use of their control over finances to work against the leadership by diverting money from key marginals to bolster already safe seats.
The attacks on Corbyn from the right of the PLP and a complicit media were something else. Unprecedented and deeply disturbing for the future of democracy in the UK.
 
It’s significant too that the attacks on the left haven’t stopped, despite the fact that they are not only no longer in charge but well beaten. It’s literally all that this faction knows how to do and they will keep doing it until only Wes Streeting and Peter Mandelson are left standing.

The fact that in-fighting is a historical constant in Labour shouldn’t distract us from what’s new here, which is the sheer awfulness of the current right of the party.

Their strategic mastermind right now is Peter Mandelson! Let that sink in!
 
It's worth noting that Rayner was also sacked from her role as party Chair (so the "bad campaign" argument doesn't wash). Ironically she was scheduled to appear on Marr this moring to bat for Starmer.

Given that the Party Chair is post is essentially 'without portfolio', then I would be willing to bet that campaign coordination was a significant part of her terms of reference.
 
The problem with Labour is not about the personality or politics of the leader. The problem is with the right wing whose only idea for the party is to move to the right and now has the power to silence any dissenting voice.

The Labour Party has made itself unelectable by attacking itself for half a decade or more, the only way it will stop attacking itself and become electable, is when the right wing judges that the Labour Party has become sufficiently right wing. The only question is how far right will be sufficient?
It works both ways: the problem with Labour is just as much the right wing as it is the left wing. Both sides now despise each other, as this thread has demonstrated for years now, and have fought each other to a standstill.

That doesn't diminish the truth of your second paragraph. Labour will remain unelectable as long as its constituent factions prefer fighting each other to fighting the Conservatives.
 
Corbyn has represented the metropolitan latte-drinking hipsters, indie kids and media types of an increasingly gentrified Islington (actually a lovely vibrant place) since the early ‘80s. Maybe they have a somewhat different view of things than you, and may even consider generic politicians in dull grey business suits in a negative light?!

The bit of Islington you describe is a tiny fraction of the borough (literally one street!) and not representative at all. Like most parts of inner London of it is mostly estates, struggling/underfunded schools and hospitals and social problems and is from that point of view very similar to neighbouring boroughs like Hackney and Newham.

On the clothes thing, for working class people how you dress matters a lot and in my experience there has always been a strong culture of looking smart amongst working class men, although it's often far less important for women. Oddly, again in my experience, this is the opposite of how it works with the middle classes where the women are the ones who care about clothes and the men are the ones who by and large consider it a badge of pride in not caring about what clothes they wear.

Regarding Starmer, I think his main problem has been the same as Corbyn's and he has mostly just been uninspiring and shown a lack of leadership. He's really good at the lawyerly stuff like making Johnson look stupid at PMQs (which Miliband was also good at fwiw) but not much else. In retrospect, awful Centrist Dads like me were wrong to think that him being presentable and competent and not having Corbyn's obvious media and popularity problems would be enough to turn Labour's fortunes around.

So I am left with my original reaction of really not knowing what Labour can do next other than letting out a weary sigh when most of Labour go back to their default positions of blaming The Left! or The Right!
 
The attacks on Corbyn from the right of the PLP and a complicit media were something else. Unprecedented and deeply disturbing for the future of democracy in the UK.
I don’t think they were ‘unprecedented’, Kinnock always had a torrid time & the media really went after Blair (& his wife) in a way they wouldn’t or couldn’t today.

I agree the media went for JC but I think they do the same for anyone who is not a Tory.
 
I think it's worth looking at the 2018 local elections under Corbyn, and after the 2017 GE manifesto by which time he'd had a chance to define and to campaign for his policy agenda. 2017 had been a disappointment for Labour but in 2018 there was a swing to Labour of 8%. Why wasn't the more left wing Labour party unpopular in the way many here are seeking to push? Surely they should have lost 200-300 (or more) councillors? Could it just be that the policies were popular before Brexit and the battles with the right finished him off? What happened in reality was Corbyn and McDonnell scared the living daylights out of the establishment in 2017, and the Labour right was complicit in seeking to ensure they would never repeat it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_United_Kingdom_local_elections
 
It works both ways: the problem with Labour is just as much the right wing as it is the left wing. Both sides now despise each other, as this thread has demonstrated for years now, and have fought each other to a standstill.

That doesn't diminish the truth of your second paragraph. Labour will remain unelectable as long as its constituent factions prefer fighting each other to fighting the Conservatives.
Yes. All parties have ideological divisions, the Tories have had Europe threatening their viability for years too, but even Major’s ‘bastards’ only campaigned behind the scenes later in his term in office whereas with Labour outright attacks on the leadership have been done in the limelight and centre stage from day one
 
The bit of Islington you describe is a tiny fraction of the borough (literally one street!) and not representative at all. Like most parts of inner London of it is mostly estates, struggling/underfunded schools and hospitals and social problems and is from that point of view very similar to neighbouring boroughs like Hackney and Newham.

On the clothes thing, for working class people how you dress matters a lot and in my experience there has always been a strong culture of looking smart amongst working class men, although it's often far less important for women. Oddly, again in my experience, this is the opposite of how it works with the middle classes where the women are the ones who care about clothes and the men are the ones who by and large consider it a badge of pride in not caring about what clothes they wear.

Regarding Starmer, I think his main problem has been the same as Corbyn's and he has mostly just been uninspiring and shown a lack of leadership. He's really good at the lawyerly stuff like making Johnson look stupid at PMQs (which Miliband was also good at fwiw) but not much else. In retrospect, awful Centrist Dads like me were wrong to think that him being presentable and competent and not having Corbyn's obvious media and popularity problems would be enough to turn Labour's fortunes around.

So I am left with my original reaction of really not knowing what Labour can do next other than letting out a weary sigh when most of Labour go back to their default positions of blaming The Left! or The Right!
Excellent post & I 100% agree. Both my parents always dress up when on a night out.
 
The bit of Islington you describe is a tiny fraction of the borough (literally one street!) and not representative at all. Like most parts of inner London of it is mostly estates, struggling/underfunded schools and hospitals and social problems and is from that point of view very similar to neighbouring boroughs like Hackney and Newham.

On the clothes thing, for working class people how you dress matters a lot and in my experience there has always been a strong culture of looking smart amongst working class men, although it's often far less important for women. Oddly, again in my experience, this is the opposite of how it works with the middle classes where the women are the ones who care about clothes and the men are the ones who by and large consider it a badge of pride in not caring about what clothes they wear.

Regarding Starmer, I think his main problem has been the same as Corbyn's and he has mostly just been uninspiring and shown a lack of leadership. He's really good at the lawyerly stuff like making Johnson look stupid at PMQs (which Miliband was also good at fwiw) but not much else. In retrospect, awful Centrist Dads like me were wrong to think that him being presentable and competent and not having Corbyn's obvious media and popularity problems would be enough to turn Labour's fortunes around.

So I am left with my original reaction of really not knowing what Labour can do next other than letting out a weary sigh when most of Labour go back to their default positions of blaming The Left! or The Right!
It’s the right! That this is an aesthetically unsatisfying answer doesn’t make it less true, sadly.

I think the penny might be starting to drop - surprisingly pro-Angela piece in the Observer today - but there are strong incentives for centrist journalists not to check their own wallets, having had them thoroughly inspected by some of the thickest and most transparently dishonest people in the business.

Mandelson! Come on!
 
It works both ways: the problem with Labour is just as much the right wing as it is the left wing. Both side now despise each other, as this thread has demonstrated for months, nae, years now, and have fought each other to a standstill.

They have always been unable to work together and no doubt always will. The centre left are in control now and able to make the decisions to get the party elected. They have moved the party forward slightly but well short of what is required. The centre left are not at a standstill due to the hard left possessing and using power to prevent them. It seems to be much more the case that the centre left simply don't know how to move forward. Unlike the hard left they don't seem to know where they want to get or, consequently, how to get there. Whether they have the ability or desire to sort this out is uncertain but we should find out over the coming months.

That doesn't diminish the truth of your second paragraph. Labour will remain unelectable as long as its constituent factions prefer fighting each other to fighting the Conservatives.

While labour's approach is to stand for little beyond not being the conservatives and the conservatives are considered supportable then they won't get elected. That will change if the conservatives are no longer considered supportable by a significant proportion of their currently tentative supporters. It will also change if labour is perceived as standing for something that is supportable rather than mostly a vacuum. The labour leadership may be unimpressive but it is not in a bad position and may even get elected by doing nothing so long as the conservatives don't change the rules and bring the general election forward which they are likely to do.
 
It's definitely the right this time.

I think Labour needs to accept that, whatever ideological contortions it puts itself through, and whoever is leader, the press will be against it. So why not stop trying to placate the press, take a principled stand, and come up with a programme that goes beyond 'we're not the Tories'?
 
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