Linn LP12s – Fire away!

[Mr Pig]

Surely, if the suspension was good enough the tables, footers and plinths wouldn't make a difference?

Very good question.

To start with consider that the suspension on the LP12 was designed fifty years ago and is essentially unchanged. The springs have been changed once and that was just grinding the ends flat so that they were less likely to rotate on their own. Apart from that, fifty years old. That means before computer modeling and most of the test equipment modern designers take for granted.

I think the designers of the LP12, Castle Engineering, were good engineers but the bottom line is that the suspension was guesswork, trial and error and they got lucky. Whatever they thought it was doing, it happened to sound good and they had no means of understanding why. Other suspended turntables are much better at isolating from foot-fall, the AR Turntable for instance, but they don't sound as good and still don't fully isolate the deck from what it sits on.

Every turntable I've ever owned or used has been sensitive to what it sits on, whatever the claims to the contrary. I simply don't think it's possible to reduce the transmission of energy into and out of a turntable to zero and, due to the huge level of signal amplification, even slight changes are audible.

 

[13th Duke of Wymbourne]

I am sure the suspension seemed like a good idea in 1974 for isolation as other decks had used it before but, IMO, it not as effective as you'd think for isolation. And the down side is that the subchassis is free to move in the 'time' axis, which is likely a very bad thing. Anyway, I won't re-hash all that as it is discussed in many places, including PFM.
I remember, back in the 80s in Hi-Fi Answers (?) there was a guy with a regular column (Peter something) that was basically 'this month I have been mostly putting X under my LP12'. He tried all sorts of footers, tables, sub-tables, the stock feet tightened/loosened and even developing trays at one point. This was 40 years ago and we haven't moved on. And the discussion of which plinth wood sounds the most musical and the expensive third-party plinths and no one even considers the springs in all of this - especially not Linn as their latest upgrade is their own expensive plinth. For the LP12-50 price I am disappointed they didn't do any engineering.

ps. I realize that no suspension will be prefect so how it interfaces to the outside world is important but really - $30 springs that are not even matched to their different loadings that rely on guru tuning using a method ('the bounce') that in no way reflects how the suspension works in real use!

 

[Chris]

And then the insoles/mushrooms appeared and my springs, at least, went out of the window. Easily justified by resulting sound but of course not Linn cricket. Still on Mana with solid floor as has been for 25 years. No idea about effect of no springs in combination with wooden springy floor.

 

[sq225917]

I wouldn't underestimate what engineering tools were available 50 years ago to tune frequency and relative damping of the lp12 suspension. It was designed for the arms and carts of the time and is optimized for their mass and compliance.

 

[13th Duke of Wymbourne]

I thought engineering tools from 50 years ago were all cast iron and painted green

 

[Paul Mc]

As someone said to me recently, if you want to get rid of the springs, why not just buy a Rega?

 

[RJohan]

The suspension is not trying to isolate the stylus from footfall or other in-room vibrations, if I understand correctly, but from the motor.

It makes sense as the motor is always there and making noises (Yes, DD motors also makes noises). I record silently onto digital before listening (thank God for the modern world) so don't have to bother about the others.

Still, it could have been better. The Godfather of the modern record deck, AR, always did all of that splendidly.

 

[sonddek]

As someone said to me recently, if you want to get rid of the springs, why not just buy a Rega?

Because Regas have neither springs nor mushrooms?

The mushrooms are the best thing that ever happened to my Sondek. Even more important than a tonearm upgrade.

 

[13th Duke of Wymbourne]

As someone said to me recently, if you want to get rid of the springs, why not just buy a Rega?

Certainly a good comparison to make if you are buying a new turntable, but if you already have an LP12 taking out the springs is an easy DIY proposition. Sadly, the InSoles are no longer available but the 'mushrooms/generic mushrooms' are (search for those threads). But, I think you could easily experiment by simply removing the nut, washer, bottom grommet and spring and then put back the washer and nut to support the top grommet that holds up the sub-chassis (do them one at a time!). The Insoles/mushrooms basically replicate what the top grommet does. They are more compliant than the standard Linn grommets but not by much so worth a try IMHO.

 

[Paul Hindle]

I won't re-hash all that as it is discussed in many places

Yet somehow, you have managed just that

 

[Pure_Carbon]

Listened to several, owned none.
Met Mr. Tiefenbrun back in the 80's when my mate was the manager of what was then KJ Leisuresound in Fleet St. London.
Didn't like him, and he sort of admitted that the design wasn't really his , just tweaked (stole?) someone else's ideas.

 

[Chris]

I’m none too keen on Nazi Germany but I’m bloody glad I bought my Beetle in1975, just 6 years older than my LP12. I believe the design work was also forced on/ stolen from a 3rd party, not to mention the contribution of a certain Major Hirst of the British Army. No idea what his men thought of Hirst. No idea what his neighbours think of Richard Sonddek but I’d love one of his arms. Pity the miserable sod won’t give me one for my birthday.

 

[Mr Pig]

Listened to several, owned none.
Met Mr. Tiefenbrun back in the 80's when my mate was the manager of what was then KJ Leisuresound in Fleet St. London.
Didn't like him, and he sort of admitted that the design wasn't really his , just tweaked (stole?) someone else's ideas.

I believe it was Castle's work. Yes, you can say that the basic architecture copies designs already available but you can say the same thing about virtually ever car on the road. I'm no fan of Linn the company as they are today but I get tired of this regurgitate idea that the LP12 is not their work. It is.

 

[John]

After reading many, many threads on various forums about LP12 tables, footers and plinths I started to wonder why hardly anyone talks about the suspension. Surely, if the suspension was good enough the tables, footers and plinths wouldn't make a difference?

Someone on that Metal Plinth thread on the Wam did a nice job describing the LP12 as two entities. One being the parts of the turntable supported by the springs, ie subchassis, bearing, platter, tonearm, the other being the motor, top plate, plinth.

I can see how footers, platforms, tables and plinths can affect both entities of the LP12 and have experienced their effect over the years. I was never a fan of the suspension within a suspension the Trampolin or rubber feet create and their hinderance in allowing vibrations created by the motor from exiting the deck.

 

[Tony L]

<moderating>

Post without citation deleted. I‘m perfectly happy to link to the post (it is here on AudioKarma), but just screen-scraping the whole thing without explanation is out of order IMHO.

 

[irb]

Well, I missed whatever it was that you removed, Tony. But that post on AudioKarma, by Hamish Robertson's daughter, is fascinating!

 

[Locheeboy]

As readers of the thread will have read posts 1191 and 1193, I assumed that some background would be relevant…The last sentence is both the citation and the explanation. The post is quoted, not simply pasted.

ps …post 1193 carries an assertion and no citation. It’ s worth challenging.. and perhaps removing…?

 

[Mr Pig]

Well, I missed whatever it was that you removed, Tony. But that post on AudioKarma, by Hamish Robertson's daughter, is fascinating!

I've read and heard a lot about this over the last thirty years and that is by far the most one-sided and rose-tinted account I have seen. Which is to be expected from his daughter but to present it as setting the record straight is disingenuous at best.

 

[irb]

I've read and heard a lot about this over the last thirty years and that is by far the most one-sided and rose-tinted account I have seen. Which is to be expected from his daughter but to present it as setting the record straight is disingenuous at best.

Well I'd rate the whole flat-earth propaganda machine back in the 80s (and beyond, where they could get away with it) as far more one-sided.

Linn's version of the story has been told many times. And the reporting about the patent hearings presented something of both sides. But, given that Hamish Robertson died in 1977, it's fascinating to hear something new from his side, after all this time. Not everyone wants to listen, of course.

 

[Mr Pig]

Nothing like as one-sided as the whole flat-earth propaganda machine back in the 80s (and beyond, where they could get away with it).

I don't see what that has to do with it but yes, I think it is. I don't think you can take anything of value away from that.