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Ukraine V

MUTTY1 said:
Well, that leaves me speechless. The hypocrisy of it. Was she bribed or caught in a honey trap ?
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I think she's honest and stupid, none really welcome qualities of a politician

As far as I can hear from my friends or wife's relatives in Germany, lots of people are shit scared of decision to send tanks into battle against Russia. Quite a few see it as an entry for a more active presence of Germany in Ukraine, meaning also ground troops nearer to endgame.

I don't disagree - on contrary, from day 1 I firmly believe the West can win this war only with full engagement of its armies against and in Russia. Ukraine army slaughter sacrifice is only to buy time before the West makes political decision which Baerbock finally openly announced.

I was criticized here when I wrote long time ago that the war will be decided in that way.
 
anubisgrau said:
I think she's honest and stupid, none really welcome qualities of a politician

As far as I can hear from my friends or wife's relatives in Germany, lots of people are shit scared of decision to send tanks into battle against Russia. Quite a few see it as an entry for a more active presence of Germany in Ukraine, meaning also ground troops nearer to endgame.

I don't disagree - on contrary, from day 1 I firmly believe the West can win this war only with full engagement of its armies against and in Russia. Ukraine army slaughter sacrifice is only to buy time before the West makes political decision which Baerbock finally openly announced.

I was criticized here when I wrote long time ago that the war will be decided in that way.
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You were criticized because it's a false statement designed explicitly to scare the western population. Every country that is helping Ukraine with weapons, training and materiel is equally specific that they will not send troops. Yet Putin and you continue to lie that they already have and will send more.

Since you live in the West and are quite concerned with your personal safety, it's safe to assume that you don't really want NATO troops to fight Russians in Ukraine or in Russia, since the chances of your own death will markedly increase. The logical conclusion is that your are purposely pushing Russian propaganda in order to reduce or eliminate Western support of Ukraine and allow Putin to take over this long suffering country.

I will say this about Germany. First, I fully respect their concern and fear about being physically involved in a war. As a country that experienced great terror from Soviet troops once the entered Germany, they have very good reasons to feel this way.

However, if German people truly felt their national future is pacifist, perhaps they shouldn't have turned their country into one of the worlds LARGEST SUPPLIERS OF DEADLY BATTLEFIELD WEAPONS!

It's would be great if a country can sell weapons to the entire world, but in case of war it can just hunker down and declare itself "neutral." The only country that has pulled it off is Switzerland and guess what - it's REALLY EXPENSIVE TO PAY FOR YOUR OWN DEFENSE (which most European countries absolutely don't want to do). So when Germany arms the entire European NATO with tanks but decided to adhere to Putin's demands during war, it puts their entire economic posture at great risk. During their months-long navel gazing, many countries voiced real concern about reliability of Germany as a real defense partner in a crisis.

And it's actually not posturing. If push comes to shove and NATO does get directly involved, Putin will certainly threaten Germany with retaliation, if it doesn't adhere to his demands and send spare tank parts to any NATO country that he is currently fighting with. If there is ANY evidence that Germany will bend to Russian demands during war, their weapons industry can just close doors.

In Russian language anti-Putin internet, the position of German government prior to the war is called "Putin fershteyn." And there is a funny Russian vernacular (I hesitate to call it "folk wisdom") to describe the German twisting of hands:
"Take off your cross or put on your underwear."
 
Picking one sentence out of context, very clever. Clearly she was upset by somebody.
I slowly changing my mind about Germany. If you think that at beginning germans "went to war" only with helmets and medical tents, then now it is their last dozen of good tanks (rest needs to be fixed first), then they starting to see and understand reality.
Actually, there are still two Germanies, when it come to how people feel about Russia.
 
DimitryZ said:
A year ago, Putin didn't invade Ukraine with his army...

I honestly don't understand why you and @anubisgrau spend so much time on claiming that "Russia is at war with the West." (which, incidentally, is a main point that Putin hammers every time).

I think that pretty much in every conflict, some countries chose to help combatants on each side of the conflict. This time Ukraine has many western countries supplying weapons and materiel and Russia has Iran, North Korea and Iran doing the same. However, there are no foreign soldiers on the battlefield in any significant numbers - couple of thousand western nationals on the Ukrainian side and similar numbers of recruited middle east fighters on the Russian side, both under direct combatants' command.

This conflict is no different than many others that preceded it - Korea, Vietnam, most Israeli wars, etc., in terms of foreign involvement. I would consider it astonishing that a huge land war in the heart of Europe would NOT draw involvement from other countries, especially those bordering the battlefield.

Yet you and @anubisgrau spent lots of time painting a picture of Russia beseeched by numerous enemies which it *almost* has to invade in order to survive. And certainly, once it does, it's totally wrong for countries around the one Russia chosen first to help the target nation.

This is quite a false and illogical position that you should rethink.

It's worth noting that Putin regretts starting in Ukraine, instead of the Baltic countries.
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Not sure I've said any of that, to be honest.

My point is that it's now apparently OK to say that the West is engaged in a war with Russia, whereas a few months ago it was denounced as one of Putin's talking points - and this was after Russia invaded Ukraine. It's the inconsistency that riles me.

As for other countries providing military aid... Firstly, that is a choice, not an immutable law of nature (I make no judgement here, merely state a fact). Secondly, yes, I take the point about other wars drawing in countries not directly involved in the fighting but this feels like it is (or has the potential to be) different - in degree, if not in kind. I don't know what that means but I don't think it's irrational to be concerned about potential escalation, given the volatility and hight stakes.

I say that as an optimist who habitually thinks that the worst is very unlikely to happen. Check out my post early on in one of this thread's precursors where I dismissed the build up to the present conflict as mere "sabre rattling". Absurd, in retrospect.
 
droodzilla said:
Not sure I've said any of that, to be honest.

My point is that it's now apparently OK to say that the West is engaged in a war with Russia, whereas a few months ago it was denounced as one of Putin's talking points - and this was after Russia invaded Ukraine. It's the inconsistency that riles me.

As for other countries providing military aid... Firstly, that is a choice, not an immutable law of nature (I make no judgement here, merely state a fact). Secondly, yes, I take the point about other wars drawing in countries not directly involved in the fighting but this feels like it is (or has the potential to be) different - in degree, if not in kind. I don't know what that means but I don't think it's irrational to be concerned about potential escalation, given the volatility and hight stakes.

I say that as a born optimist who habitually thinks that the worst is very unlikely to happen. Check out my post early on in one of this thread's precursor's where I dismissed the build up to the present conflict as mere "sabre rattling". Absurd, in retrospect.
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I will be brief. It's factually incorrect to state that the West is engaged in a war with Russia. We are not. There hasn't been any Western soldiers or weapons in anger on Soviet or Russian soil for over 100 years. You are free to state that the West is at war with Russia (i. e. attacking Russian lands) but it's demonstratively false. In fact, even the short range HIMARS we give to Ukraine are modified to NOT FIRE ON RUSSIAN TERRITORY. Ukrainian government signed a memorandum of understanding to not use any Western weapons outside their own borders, but even if they tried it, the weapon would be locked out.

It is also the basis of Russian propaganda today: the West is attacking Russia with the aim of enslaving it's population and stealing it's riches. By repeating this falsehood, one amplifies Russian propaganda and I assume most of us don't want to do that?
 
droodzilla said:
Not sure I've said any of that, to be honest.

My point is that it's now apparently OK to say that the West is engaged in a war with Russia, whereas a few months ago it was denounced as one of Putin's talking points - and this was after Russia invaded Ukraine. It's the inconsistency that riles me.

As for other countries providing military aid... Firstly, that is a choice, not an immutable law of nature (I make no judgement here, merely state a fact). Secondly, yes, I take the point about other wars drawing in countries not directly involved in the fighting but this feels like it is (or has the potential to be) different - in degree, if not in kind. I don't know what that means but I don't think it's irrational to be concerned about potential escalation, given the volatility and hight stakes.

I say that as an optimist who habitually thinks that the worst is very unlikely to happen. Check out my post early on in one of this thread's precursors where I dismissed the build up to the present conflict as mere "sabre rattling". Absurd, in retrospect.
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I think countries helping others in time of war is an immutable law of human psychology, if not of nature - we are simply built that way - to help weaker members of the tribe/clan. I can't think of any war in recent history where two combatant nations were not getting support from other countries.
 
Well @DimitryZ, you can complain to Analena Baerbock for confirming the West is in the war with Russia.

And frankly, giving your writing, I would assume you would be proud of saying it loudly and clearly, as she did, instead of cowardly hiding behind the false arguments.

Sadly, Germany is an occupied state but that's their problem. Not only Germany, Europe too is involved in the US foreign interests but that's what it is. It's only silly that a ridiculous people like Baerbock and similar has a voice to decide on something that is not an interest of their people. I'm confident she makes many of you happy, giving the recent UK major decisions.
 
anubisgrau said:
Well @DimitryZ, you can complain to Analena Baerbock for confirming the West is in the war with Russia.

And frankly, giving your writing, I would assume you would be proud of saying it loudly and clearly, as she did, instead of cowardly hiding behind the false arguments.

Sadly, Germany is an occupied state but that's their problem. Not only Germany, Europe too is involved in the US foreign interests but that's what it is. It's only silly that a ridiculous people like Baerbock and similar has a voice to decide on something that is not an interest of their people. I'm confident she makes many of you happy, giving the recent UK major decisions.
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So nothing factual to actually challenge anything I wrote.

I don't know who this lady is and I don't follow German politics closely.

But you once again succeeded in hijacking the thread with another rehashing of Russian propaganda.
 
DimitryZ said:
I will be brief. It's factually incorrect to state that the West is engaged in a war with Russia. We are not. There hasn't been any Western soldiers or weapons in anger on Soviet or Russian soil for over 100 years. You are free to state that the West is at war with Russia (i. e. attacking Russian lands) but it's demonstratively false. In fact, even the short range HIMARS we give to Ukraine are modified to NOT FIRE ON RUSSIAN TERRITORY. Ukrainian government signed a memorandum of understanding to not use any Western weapons outside their own borders, but even if they tried it, the weapon would be locked out.

It is also the basis of Russian propaganda today: the West is attacking Russia with the aim of enslaving it's population and stealing it's riches. By repeating this falsehood, one amplifies Russian propaganda and I assume most of us don't want to do that?
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Again, I did not say any of that.
 
DimitryZ said:
So nothing factual to actually challenge anything I wrote.

I don't know who this lady is and I don't follow German politics closely.

But you once again succeeded in hijacking the thread with another rehashing of Russian propaganda.
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Easy to accuse, impossible to prove. That's the essence of your writing here.

Boring, good night everyone.
 
droodzilla said:
Again, I did not say any of that.
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Perhaps we should not be discussing what some politician said, but rather focus on where the combatants are, who invaded whom, etc.

You write that it's OK to say "West is at war with Russia." I don't know what OK means in your understanding, but as I have shown, it's a definitionally false statement. It's also a major tenet of Russian propaganda, which endlessly restates any such false statements that they can find.

So, with that in mind, those of us who want to stick to the truth, don't say that West is at war with Russia. I think you are a science person who may agree that words have specific meaning. One can certainly find non-complimentary words to describe West's relationship with Russia, but "war" literally can't be one of them.

Here is a simple thought experiment. If the West is "at war with Russia" now, what word would be correct to use if NATO troops are fighting Russian troops in Ukraine and elsewhere, with truly massive casualties and grave damage on both sides, far outside Ukraine?
 
So much wasted energy to verbally prove that the West is not at war with Russia.

Meanwhile German minister of foreign affairs proudly confirms that, word for word, happy that the country she represents sends the tanks.

And than we don't know who is that lady... C'mon.
 
That is good thing that she is proud, I am also. Germany receveid a lot of criticism for doing not much, holding back on tanks, re-export included, partners may worry what position Germany would take if somebody else is in similar trouble. And that response was to UK representative to criticism for giving too little.

Words, words... Russia do not call it a war, they are not in war with Ukraine, and, according to Lavrov, Russia even did not invade Ukraine! Feel any better?
 
gints said:
That is good thing that she is proud, I am also. Germany receveid a lot of criticism for doing not much, holding back on tanks, re-export included, partners may worry what position Germany would take if somebody else is in similar trouble. And that response was to UK representative to criticism for giving too little.

Words, words... Russia do not call it a war, they are not in war with Ukraine, and, according to Lavrov, Russia even did not invade Ukraine! Feel any better?
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you mean Lie-vrov I think.
 
anubisgrau said:
So much wasted energy to verbally prove that the West is not at war with Russia.

Meanwhile German minister of foreign affairs proudly confirms that, word for word, happy that the country she represents sends the tanks.

And than we don't know who is that lady... C'mon.
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And who started the war?
Many countries were not at war with Nazi Germany when they invaded Poland, but as realisation startet to grow and international alliances started to kick in whole free world was fighting fascist evil this or other way. Now we have Nazi Russia invading Ukraine and again free world starting to realize to get rid of this evil, Ukraine must win. So stop crying, you have example in the history.
 
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Seems like Bakhmut is soon to be captured by the Russians. I am sensing that the tide has turned slightly in recent weeks, the effect of the sheer numbers of mobilised soldiers is starting to make it hard for the Ukrainians.

Those tanks can’t come a moment too soon. 6 months ago would have been far better.
 
NeilR said:
Seems like Bakhmut is soon to be captured by the Russians. I am sensing that the tide has turned slightly in recent weeks, the effect of the sheer numbers of mobilised soldiers is starting to make it hard for the Ukrainians.

Those tanks can’t come a moment too soon. 6 months ago would have been far better.
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After the start of RuSSian invasion I was advocating here full military support only to be met with cautious approach and feer of involvement and nukes. So yeah... Those deliveries will be too late and the delay already costed lives tens of thousands people. Biggest issue is that most deliveries will only replace already lost equipment.
 
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