Gas and Electricity Prices

[Ponty]

Another one of those installs that makes my blood boil. The installer should be named/ shamed and then publicly executed.......................... It is so easy to sort stuff like this out if only we had an administration capable of doing so.

Regards

Richard

Thing is, they’re trying to do ‘the right thing’ and it’s costing a fortune to both buy and run. I spoke to my builder the other day, a place he’s working on have installed a GSHP which cost over £40K. It really doesn’t work very well at all.

 

[Richard Lines]

Ponty,

That's what makes my blood boil, people who can clearly 'afford' to do the right thing equally clearly being 'shafted' by installers who should, as I said, be 'outed' for the charlatans they are.

I am a long way from being an expert in this area, and would never claim to be one, but I am available to offer my thoughts to anybody planning on spending 40K installing a heating system.

I have yet to have an installer install something in my house where I haven't been more knowledgable............., and I gain my 'knowledge' from manufacturer's web sites, forums etc. which are as accessible to the contractor as they are to me............

Regards

Richard

 

[matt j]

£40k on a heating system, is this Boris' next upgrade courtesy of a friendly donor?

 

[mansr]

Thats not quite true. Have you not come across endothermic chemical reactions or performed the rubber band stretching experiment. In both cases entropy decreases.

Remember entropy is a measurement of disorder.

Entropy can decrease locally, but only if there is an increase somewhere else.

 

[Ponty]

Ponty,

That's what makes my blood boil, people who can clearly 'afford' to do the right thing equally clearly being 'shafted' by installers who should, as I said, be 'outed' for the charlatans they are.

I am a long way from being an expert in this area, and would never claim to be one, but I am available to offer my thoughts to anybody planning on spending 40K installing a heating system.

I have yet to have an installer install something in my house where I haven't been more knowledgable............., and I gain my 'knowledge' from manufacturer's web sites, forums etc. which are as accessible to the contractor as they are to me............

Regards

Richard

I think the big problem is that many of these ‘green’ technologies simply don’t work properly, unless installed in optimum working conditions, when they might. I’d suggest for the vast majority in the UK, a combi gas boiler (where available) will be the most efficient method of providing heating and hot water. Of course, this can be supplemented by solar thermal or PV where applicable but the core system has to be fit for purpose in the first place.

 

[Mike Reed]

I’d suggest for the vast majority in the UK, a combi gas boiler (where available) will be the most efficient method of providing heating and hot water.

I can see that a combi might be the more efficient simply by dint of its operating format, but surely a gas boiler operating a hot water cylinder and heating can't be far behind. My airing cupboard (in the bathroom) obv. loses heat into the loft but just under the cold water and header tanks, thereby preventing any freezing in adverse temperatures. Also, I'd imagine that a combi would have a shorter operating life due to its relative complexity.

 

[Ponty]

I can see that a combi might be the more efficient simply by dint of its operating format, but surely a gas boiler operating a hot water cylinder and heating can't be far behind. My airing cupboard (in the bathroom) obv. loses heat into the loft but just under the cold water and header tanks, thereby preventing any freezing in adverse temperatures. Also, I'd imagine that a combi would have a shorter operating life due to its relative complexity.

Yes, whichever is the best solution for the property. In a flat of mine there is a gas combi boiler and megaflow system, which works a treat and uses sod all gas (very well insulated property).

 

[mikemusic]

One of my neighbours said his payback on a lot of PV panels was 8 years
I doubted that so looked up to find an average of 20 years.
Before latest round of price rises so could reduce nicely

 

[Richard Lines]

One of my neighbours said his payback on a lot of PV panels was 8 years
I doubted that so looked up to find an average of 20 years.
Before latest round of price rises so could reduce nicely

I recently calculated that adding a further 3kW to my existing 12kW would nett me £323 in the first year. It would cost me some £1700 to install the same. The benefit would rise each year with any increase in electricity prices. That's a less than 6 year payback.

As I have already suggested the greatest single thing that would save people gas is them operating their existing condensing boilers 'properly' and only selling boilers that can modulate below circa 1.7kW to reduce short cycling - but what do I know?

Regards

Richard

 

[Bob McC]

I can see that a combi might be the more efficient simply by dint of its operating format, but surely a gas boiler operating a hot water cylinder and heating can't be far behind. My airing cupboard (in the bathroom) obv. loses heat into the loft but just under the cold water and header tanks, thereby preventing any freezing in adverse temperatures. Also, I'd imagine that a combi would have a shorter operating life due to its relative complexity.

We replaced a boiler/ cylinder system with a combi 2 years ago.
Our bills have plummeted.
Only heating water as and when it’s needed works for us.

 

[Ponty]

One of my neighbours said his payback on a lot of PV panels was 8 years
I doubted that so looked up to find an average of 20 years.
Before latest round of price rises so could reduce nicely

Some of it can work. I reckon my solar thermal paid for itself in about 5 years, but it’s not going to work for everyone, just as air and ground source heat pumps don’t.

 

[Mike Reed]

One of my neighbours said his payback on a lot of PV panels was 8 years

If installed and registered before the feed-in tariff was initially cut, I can well believe it. People who did that are laughing all the way to the bank; what was just a chuckle before would have become a guffaw now !

We replaced a boiler/ cylinder system with a combi 2 years ago.
Our bills have plummeted.

Like for like? Boilers generally and condensing combis especially have become much more efficient in the last decade, according to my plumber and a <10 year almost identical recent replacement.

 

[Richard Lines]

Some of it can work. I reckon my solar thermal paid for itself in about 5 years, but it’s not going to work for everyone, just as air and ground source heat pumps don’t.

Unfortunately my solar thermal's efficiency is 'limited' by the eddi unit heating the water more 'efficiently' - it's usually a battle royal between the two. I am going to have to find a way to limit the eddi in some way but would need to find an alternate use other than simple export.

If installed and registered before the feed-in tariff was initially cut, I can well believe it.

A fresh install should pay for itself in less than 10yrs without any subsidies, especially if energy prices are allowed to rise. The one area I don't agree with in modern installs is the 'oversizing' of panels to the inverter. This leads to the inverter operating at maximum capacity for, admittedly, limited periods of time but I don't think any piece of electronic equipment is designed to be run at 100% of capacity and must take its toll.

It is prudent to allow for replacing the inverter at around the 8yrs point although maybe newer devices are more durable?

Regards

Richard

 

[mikemusic]

I recently calculated that adding a further 3kW to my existing 12kW would nett me £323 in the first year. It would cost me some £1700 to install the same. The benefit would rise each year with any increase in electricity prices. That's a less than 6 year payback.

As I have already suggested the greatest single thing that would save people gas is them operating their existing condensing boilers 'properly' and only selling boilers that can modulate below circa 1.7kW to reduce short cycling - but what do I know?

Regards

Richard

That sounds very good
My latest figures came from Martin Lewis on t'telly

 

[Richard Lines]

My latest figures came from Martin Lewis on t'telly

There are a great many sources of information on a wide range of subjects available to all of us. I do try and 'steer' conversations on those subjects on which I have some experience in the hope of offering 'balance'.........

Regards

Richard

 

[Mike Reed]

I've noticed a gradual deterioration in heating my 3 bed detached, esp. this winter. Not sure if it's my 30+ year old boiler, the pipes and/or rad's becoming less efficient due to build-up of detritus or my age, with its commensurate circulatory degradation and susceptibility to cold. Maybe all three, but at least the boiler is still functioning well; that's a plus. Shall have to seriously consider a revamp from spring onward, but hate to jettison a decent piece of kit.

 

[SteveG]

The 25 year old boiler in my main house (which is also 25-years old) does seem a lot less effective & efficient than the 1 year old oil-fired combi boiler that's in our 250 year old cottage (although that's been fairly well insulated when it was renovated).

I think I'm going to look in to replacing the boiler in the my main place with a gas combi this year, while I still can, as the cost of moving to a non-fossil fuel alternative would be massive and definitely not recoverable in the time I'm likely to continue owning this place.

 

[Ponty]

I've noticed a gradual deterioration in heating my 3 bed detached, esp. this winter. Not sure if it's my 30+ year old boiler, the pipes and/or rad's becoming less efficient due to build-up of detritus or my age, with its commensurate circulatory degradation and susceptibility to cold. Maybe all three, but at least the boiler is still functioning well; that's a plus. Shall have to seriously consider a revamp from spring onward, but hate to jettison a decent piece of kit.

If it’s 30 years old I’d be tempted to put in a new gas boiler whilst they are relatively cheap. The clueless govt are bound to whack higher taxes on gas boilers as they try to force people into heat pumps (which won’t work in many properties).

 

[mikemusic]

I've noticed a gradual deterioration in heating my 3 bed detached, esp. this winter. Not sure if it's my 30+ year old boiler, the pipes and/or rad's becoming less efficient due to build-up of detritus or my age, with its commensurate circulatory degradation and susceptibility to cold. Maybe all three, but at least the boiler is still functioning well; that's a plus. Shall have to seriously consider a revamp from spring onward, but hate to jettison a decent piece of kit.

Some of the rads may have air in them.
One of mine had and was so much better after bleeding

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I'm taking a particular interest in this thread as a result of our central heating system having failed a while ago! The pump has stopped and some people I know who have DIY'd their own systems say it *can* be changed (has isolation valves, and replacements are available). However two 'plumbers' in turn have said, "Nope, you need to change the entire system!"

Since we are 'shielding' and it is winter I'm not keen on having days of the heating off, doors open, and workmen in and out the entire house! They also said the new boiler had to go in a different place -> new kitchen as well, Cue more workmen, etc!!

So until spring we're on using a gas fire + some electric convectors as we decide what to do. Then in spring when it is warm and *maybe* less covid risk, can make a change. I did look at heat pumps but doubt they make sense for us. So given that gas prices will rise more than electric I am watching to see if the gap narrows. Then consider electric, perhaps with also solar PV and a 'house battery' to get in power on off-peak discount, etc. Be interested to hear info on these from others...