Better than Tannoys...?

[Tony L]

I asked for the La Scala because they don play as deep as other 15" driver speakers like the Cornwall, the Legacy Arden, etc.

La Scalas are true three-way horns, and the bass horn is simply too small to dig much below 50Hz. Mine got down to about 40Hz with corner reinforcement, but in the other room in the location where the Tannoys are they had no bass at all! Really none! I thought they were broken. They just play by entirely different rules to box speakers and a proper 3-way horn (i.e. not a two-way horn speaker with ported box bass) really is something everyone should hear. Definitely rates as something as distinct and its own thing as say a large panel or a sealed-box nearfield mini-monitor. Lightening fast bass, astonishing dynamics, but in the case of the La Scalas flawed too. Regardless they did some things better than anything else I’ve heard. They are another speaker that is entirely different in real life to internet wisdom. Not harsh or edgy in the slightest, not a hint, in fact the mid is beautifully open and clear, plus unimpacted by crossovers as the mid-horn runs so wide. They do have some obvious box colouration as the largely unsupported ply walls of the bass horn sing along (this can apparently be braced-out). I’d love to hear full Klipschorns in a well setup domestic environment, I’ve only ever heard them in ‘Loft’ style party/club systems, and they give the impression of having a lot more fast deep bass than the La Scala as they use the room by design.

Fascinating things for sure. The modern high-end horns, e.g. the full three-way Avant Gardes etc move things a long way forward, but obviously cost a lot of money. I’d love to hear the top end Living Voice too. Bet they are simply incredible.

 

[psd122]

What's wrong with ears as opposed to a graph from some magazine

 

[cooky1257]

Three no four large loudspeakers I've owned. cloned or honed that are the equal of, better in some respects and not as good as Tannoy Duals are my various JBL's.

In terms of dynamic ability and sheer visceral enjoyment the JBL Array 1400, 9800Se, even my own tweeked 1725 PA cabs plus BK 400 subs(the HF butt cheek horn/comp drivers are from the fabulous 4430 monitor, the bass mid is the stunningly good 2206), all edge the Tannoys-great as they are. Bottom end, well there's nothing quite like a JBL monitor doing kick drum n low toms. Coherence, even up close, the Tannoys have it nailed, 3D imaging, again nothing beats a Tannoy DC, the Beryllium comp driver in the JBL Array SAM1 horn is liquid smooth, the best horn I've ever heard and images very well but sorry no cigar.
The ideal speaker would be a combination of the qualities of both philosophies(I'll bolt that JBL 2435Be comp driver onto a Tannoy 3833 one day), as a complete package I keep returning to the Tannoy DC, they rock, they image superbly and can be subtle and delicate when called on,. Both brands have character, I have a house full of both, they are both the very definition of musicality imho..
Oh and you can play a bass guitar through them....that's main monitor pedigree right there, no little boutique fart boxes. would cope;-)

 

[Chris81]

@cooky1257 : I have heard the phrase "close but no cigar" from a song from Millencolin but I don't get the sense. Now you have used it too with "but no cigar". Maybe you'd be so kind and explain to me what it means.

@Tony L: I have owned two Klipschorns in the past in different (way) bigger rooms. One was a KD version from 1982 and the second was a AK3 from ? If you switch from a Harbeth the sound can't be more different, because the HF has way less resolution and rolls off relative early and relative steep. So it needs time to get used to the different sound. I must say I preferred the Cornwall 3 because it doesn't sound as dry as the AK3 in the bass. Maybe my impression is wrong but the Horn bass sound sometimes seemed to be a bit artificial and too dry, I missed some body and warmth with drums and double bass. The idea behind a La Scala is that it won't excite the room mode at 37Hz as much as a Cornwall will do. I also love to use a 300b triode amplifier which I have fallen in love with not to long ago.

 

[cooky1257]

@cooky1257 : I have heard the phrase "close but no cigar" from a song from Millencolin but I don't get the sense. Now you have used it too with "but no cigar". Maybe you'd be so kind and explain to me what it means.

It means the JBL's SAM1 horn gave the Tannoy a close race in terms of imaging but failed to win, hence no cigar to celebrate.

 

[tonerei]

I honestly don’t know which I prefer between Tannoys and ESLs.

Mine are a totally stock pair of 15” Monitor Golds in ‘60s Lockwood Universal Major cabs. I’m not saying they are perfect, but I’d be amazed if they pissed people off in the way some accuse Tannoys of doing. So many amazing records were born via these speakers they just can’t be that wrong. If Tannoys were over-bright or forward every classic Abbey Rd, Porky Prime Cut, Decca SXL or whatever would sound dull and blunted! They are what was used on many of the most prized items in our record collections.

I have both and will stick with them. Both have the qualities you outline and for not silly money you are getting seriously good speakers

 

[Tony L]

I have both and will stick with them. Both have the qualities you outline and for not silly money you are getting seriously good speakers

ESLs (57s) are a speaker I’ve wanted to own since I was a teenager. I need to do it sometime for sure.

 

[tonerei]

ESLs (57s) are a speaker I’ve wanted to own since I was a teenager. I need to do it sometime for sure.

I did! Had OTA ones on the rupert stands and loved them. I moved them on due to circumstances at the time as I had two other sets of speakers. Maybe I will go back there sometime and next time stack them. Maybe if retirement is kind to me I will get to try that route.

 

[sideshowbob]

I've never had the right kind of room for ESLs. My greatest hifi moment remains listening to Radio 3 on a Leak Troughline into a Leak Stereo 20 into ESL57s in Roy Gandy's barn in the garden of his stately home at a Leakfest organised by Terry Bateman of Rega over 15 years ago. Extraordinary moment.

 

[tonerei]

The pepperpot grit.......-1 on the energy or they are unlistenable to me-and I'm one of their biggest most evangelical of fans.

Have legacy Tannoys and had moved to choosing the level settings on both energy and roll off as I ran the speakers in. Thanks for your suggestion. Tried -1 energy on mine and the subtle improvement in sweetness and tone is very worthwhile. I am finding that moved well out into the room with the bug eyed toed in position is giving me a big broad soundstage and scale mentioned by many but also oddles of detail with no harshness.

 

[cooky1257]

Have legacy Tannoys and had moved to choosing the level settings on both energy and roll off as I ran the speakers in. Thanks for your suggestion. Tried -1 energy on mine and the subtle improvement in sweetness and tone is very worthwhile. I am finding that moved well out into the room with the bug eyed toed in position is giving me a big broad soundstage and scale mentioned by many but also oddles of detail with no harshness.

They just reward some attention to Energy/rolloff adjustment and positioning-often somewhat counter intuitively too!, eg I know of one Tannoy user who fires his straight across the room without toe-in and that seems to work well in his particular room.

 

[tonerei]

They just reward some attention to Energy/rolloff adjustment and positioning-often somewhat counter intuitively too!, eg I know of one Tannoy user who fires his straight across the room without toe-in and that seems to work well in his particular room.

That is so true and applies to most decent speakers. What works in one room might sound pants in another.

 

[Ayya Khema]

What don’t you like about the Tannoy treble?

Ive had four Tannoys speakers in my room. Tannoy Berkley, Tannoy little golds, Tannoy 15" hpd in diy cabs, Tannoy 12" golds I forgot what cabs.
Ive heard probably 5 more pairs of Tannoy RED's in GRF and all sorts of DIY cabs.

I always hear a treble that just dont agree with me. sucks cause the imaging and dynamics is awesome, but that treble grates me to no end. I just find the Tannoy sound harsh at the end of the day. I always find the sound coloured when compared to a good cone and dome speaker or high end cans.

I think its really a personal taste at this point since so many guys ears i trust and are clearly knowledgable loves there Tannoy, my dad included (that where ive heard all those Tannoy reds and probably silvers at one time).

@jandle100, im the same. wideband with whizzer cone just grates me to no end.

 

[TheDecameron]

Ive had four Tannoys speakers in my room. Tannoy Berkley, Tannoy little golds, Tannoy 15" hpd in diy cabs, Tannoy 12" golds I forgot what cabs.
Ive heard probably 5 more pairs of Tannoy RED's in GRF and all sorts of DIY cabs.

I always hear a treble that just dont agree with me. sucks cause the imaging and dynamics is awesome, but that treble grates me to no end. I just find the Tannoy sound harsh at the end of the day. But id say the same with jbl 4430, Altec's horns and pretty much every horns ive ever heard. I also agree, JBL l300 bass is in another realm in terms of bass vs the big tannoys.

That was the thing that caught my ear when I heard Westminster’s powered by Lamm valve amps about 20 years ago and completely put me off. Having said that, I’ve heard MG15s recently courtesy of a local fishie, which sounded sweet to my ears, though with age related HF hearing loss as a consideration perhaps.

 

[PhilofCas]

@Tony L Sorry for the short offtopic. How big was/is the room and listening distance of the room you use(d) the Klipsch La Scalas and your Tannoy Lookwoods? Do you think they will work in my 14sqm ( 4,49m = 14.73 feet by 3,155m = 10.34 feet) with a listening distance around 2,5m = 8.2 feet up to 3m = 9.84 feet?

Andy831 has a pair of GRF Memory, which are larger than mine, in a room somewhere between half and two thirds the size of mine. They sound great. I’ve never noticed any boom there.

I’ll attest that too, BIG speakers, small room, do work.

Andy kindly invited me over one day to help me with a passive pre/Quad 306 query I had.

Some of the best sounds I’ve heard from his Tannoy’s.

(He made me chuckle though, he didn’t appreciate a bit of Rage Against The Machine I’d brought along to try, I think his word to describe it was ‘sh*te’ ).

 

[PhilofCas]

Must say too, brilliant thread this.

 

[Mike P]

Different rooms, the La Scalas were parked right in the deep alcoves of the back TV room, the Tannoys are in the front. I’ll focus on the Tannoys as Klipsch are odd things that love corners.

This is my front room measurements, not to scale (the shape is just freehand), but the rest is accurate. It also needs to be factored that this is a very full room with a strong nod to traditional studio control room ‘live end/dead end’ acoustic techniques. It is a nice sounding room, though some small stand-mount speakers do boom a little.

My speaker position is largely dictated by the record collection, I need to be able to get to stuff, but it is cramped behind the Tannoys, in fact it is a right PITA to get to Dexter Gordon at present. Sonically it works. I’m closer than ideal to the back wall and the balance shifts depending on where exactly one sits. The thing a lot of people don’t get with Tannoys is they really aren’t bass monsters. The shift air, have a remarkable ease and scale, but they don’t have much of anything below about 40Hz even in cabs the size of mine. They can do a bass guitar bottom E in a way very few speakers can though.

I obviously can’t tell you if they’ll work in your room, but my experience is that Tannoys are rather easier to accommodate than one would ever expect looking at them. Again it is due to their not being bass monsters. If I sit forward on the listening seat, or sit on the floor in front they are actually quite lean. Andy831 has a pair of GRF Memory, which are larger than mine, in a room somewhere between half and two thirds the size of mine. They sound great. I’ve never noticed any boom there.

I've heard Andy's too and I can confirm that they do sound great.

As a side note, I once bought a pair of IMF RSPM 4's from a chap who had them in a significantly smaller room. He was selling them to buy Westminsters!

 

[GT]

My second point is that the Legacy model absolutely needs to be bi-wired. If anyone has heard them, used them, or reviewed them, in single wiring configuration, I suggest they reject all their impressions and start again. It should be mandatory, and I'm annoyed with Tannoy that they don't explain in the manual how crucial it is to get a balanced sound.

It should not be necessary to bi-wire any speaker, and if you do bi-wire you should use a specific bi-wirable cable, as in 4 wires in one single jacket. See images below as examples:

or

I can't imagine any speaker manufacturer being an advocate of that unless it is specifically mentioned in the speaker manual.

 

[eevo1969]

Just to clarify, you're not talking about bi-amping? You literally mean just have two pairs of speaker cables going from 1 set of Pos and Neg terminals per channel at the amp going into four terminals per cabinet, with jumpers removed, obviously?

Tannoy recommend bi-wiring in just that manner in the literature for their DMT series speakers but I haven’t got round to trying it out myself yet as I need to replace one of the binding posts. This is a link for the DMT series manual, it’s mentioned a few times.
https://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tansys215.pdf

 

[ToTo Man]

if you do bi-wire you should use a specific bi-wirable cable, as in 4 wires in one single jacket

OK, I'll bite. Why would this produce a different result to two individual runs of identical non-bi-wire cable?