Why should NHS have a pay rise?
- Thread starter Rodrat
- Start date
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
“Footballers can be booked for sarcastic applause, but ministers can’t.”
That did make me chuckle
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I have to say, I’m confused. I assumed at least some of the extra £350m a week that we were going to give to the NHS would be going on a decent pay rise for nurses and other staff. Where’s it going then, if not?
Are you sitting down ? Father Xmas is not real.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Sorry BT but this is all semantics.
If you are an NHS nurse, you can get paid for working outside of your normal hours by not volunteering to work unpaid O/T but going off shift and coming back as an agency nurse. Whether you are NHS staff or not when you work those extra hours, you are de facto being paid for hours worked over your contracted NHS hours. The only difference is that the money is coming from the NHS via the agency and there is no money going into your pension automatically.
Big Tabs
looking backwards, going forwards
It leaves a bad taste in the mouth for many trained staff to follow that path, and the ward manager will favour using ‘Bank’ staff which are cheaper.
It is not as straightforward as you describe it.
It isn’t overtime. It is working for an agency.
Agency staff can be absolutely shite, and be from a completely different specialty. The bad agency staff soon get ‘avoided like the plague’ as some are lazy sods.
Just talking from experience.
A friend of mine is a consultant, let’s just say there have been a lot of management changes, he admitted quite openly that consultants are really hard to manage
hifinutt
hifinutt
The RCN could do nothing about it , as i mentioned trusts prefer to get nurses to work on banks at trust rates rather than pay overtime . If you go to your manager and ask for overtime pay they will tell you to be more efficient and if you continue to work more hours than necessary you can be at risk of time management `disciplinary action` . of course thats for your own good .
nurses do get enhanced pay as this says on saturdays , sundays and bank holidays . its fairly lucrative to do out of hours nursing , i once knew a nurse who worked nights who earnt far far more tha the day sister with all the incredible responsibilities it brings
hifinutt
hifinutt
if you do too many hours and get stressed about it , you may be referred to occupational health and then you will undergo further action which may involve needing union involvement . this can happen if you claim overtime payments because you are working too many hours
Work-induced stress is now widely recognised as a significant problem in the health service as well as in all other sectors of the economy. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) says that workers in health and social care have some of the highest rates of self-reported illness due to stress, anxiety and depression1 .
Much work-related stress is likely to be preventable and NHS organisations have legal obligations to prevent or reduce stress. This should ensure that organisations put a high priority on identifying, reducing and preventing workassociated stress.
The Trades Union Congress says that stress occurs where demands made of individuals do not match the resources available or meet the individual’s needs and motivation. Stress will be the result if the workload is too large for the potential number of workers and time available. Equally, a boring or repetitive task which does not use the potential skills and experience of some individuals will cause them stress.
Stress at work can be caused by a multitude of stressors. In Tackling work-related stress: a manager’s guide to improving and maintaining employee health and well-being, the HSE identified seven broad categories of risk factors for work-related stress. • Culture issues, which could include lack of positive response to stress or health concerns, lack of staff involvement, poor communication, lack of consultation and participation in decision making, and long work hours or lack of rest breaks.
The HSE has been working with the NHS to roll out management standards of good practice which employers can use to measure their performance when tackling a range of issues that can lead to stress. Trusts which undertake the appropriate policies and interventions to manage workplace stress can reduce the risk of legal intervention. However, trusts are also at risk of civil action from employees who have suffered from stress. Showing that they apply policies and procedures to identify and lessen work-related stress among employees is likely to be useful in defending such actions.
https://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Publications/Stress management.pdf
Lets give an example of a nurse who works in the community , on top of all their many responsibilities they have to add in a flu campaign or perhaps covid jabs . if they dont then relatives complain and stress occurs . Community nurses cover GP surgeries and if they build a massive housing estate then they have to carry on regardless providing cover to the many extra people . They wont give extra staff
Managers have very fixed budgets and get a bollocking if they dont meet targets . so one example is you are allowed 1 hour for palliative care , to support folks at home and assess them . 1 hour is not long when folks are dying [ big tabs will know all about this ] . now in order to prioritise care they may reduce this assessment and care time allowed to 30 minutes . you still have to provide the same care and support in less time
this is how stress occurs and if you claim overtime they will just say you were allocated enough toime to do the job . There is HUGE amount of bullying in the NHS and i personally know of 3 who have been severely bullied and left the profession. These are caring nurses trying to provide care
Work-induced stress is now widely recognised as a significant problem in the health service as well as in all other sectors of the economy. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) says that workers in health and social care have some of the highest rates of self-reported illness due to stress, anxiety and depression1 .
Much work-related stress is likely to be preventable and NHS organisations have legal obligations to prevent or reduce stress. This should ensure that organisations put a high priority on identifying, reducing and preventing workassociated stress.
The Trades Union Congress says that stress occurs where demands made of individuals do not match the resources available or meet the individual’s needs and motivation. Stress will be the result if the workload is too large for the potential number of workers and time available. Equally, a boring or repetitive task which does not use the potential skills and experience of some individuals will cause them stress.
Stress at work can be caused by a multitude of stressors. In Tackling work-related stress: a manager’s guide to improving and maintaining employee health and well-being, the HSE identified seven broad categories of risk factors for work-related stress. • Culture issues, which could include lack of positive response to stress or health concerns, lack of staff involvement, poor communication, lack of consultation and participation in decision making, and long work hours or lack of rest breaks.
The HSE has been working with the NHS to roll out management standards of good practice which employers can use to measure their performance when tackling a range of issues that can lead to stress. Trusts which undertake the appropriate policies and interventions to manage workplace stress can reduce the risk of legal intervention. However, trusts are also at risk of civil action from employees who have suffered from stress. Showing that they apply policies and procedures to identify and lessen work-related stress among employees is likely to be useful in defending such actions.
https://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Publications/Stress management.pdf
Lets give an example of a nurse who works in the community , on top of all their many responsibilities they have to add in a flu campaign or perhaps covid jabs . if they dont then relatives complain and stress occurs . Community nurses cover GP surgeries and if they build a massive housing estate then they have to carry on regardless providing cover to the many extra people . They wont give extra staff
Managers have very fixed budgets and get a bollocking if they dont meet targets . so one example is you are allowed 1 hour for palliative care , to support folks at home and assess them . 1 hour is not long when folks are dying [ big tabs will know all about this ] . now in order to prioritise care they may reduce this assessment and care time allowed to 30 minutes . you still have to provide the same care and support in less time
this is how stress occurs and if you claim overtime they will just say you were allocated enough toime to do the job . There is HUGE amount of bullying in the NHS and i personally know of 3 who have been severely bullied and left the profession. These are caring nurses trying to provide care
hifinutt
hifinutt
so you are out looking after a patient , your time finishes at 5pm . they are dying and you have to work hours to support them . you cannot drive back to the office and then go back out as an agency nurse 1] the managers have gone home 2] they will say its your stupid fault for working overtime to care for this patient !!
in one city containing a million people there many be only 2-3 nurses in the community overnight to give care , to that blocked catheter at 1am in the morning, to that dying person who needs a pain killing injection at night .
in the real world nurses who care do hundreds of unpaid hours to provide care because they care , there is often NO budget for agency nurses and any nurse that might do OT are often SH.... as BT has said
Big Tabs
looking backwards, going forwards
What hasn’t been mentioned is the duty of care that trained Nurses have.
If you have a road accident or collapse in the street, a trained Nurse has an obligation to help. Part of the U.K.C.C. Code of Professional Conduct.
If the Nurse ignores the situation, they put themselves at risk of losing their license to practice.
https://www.nmc.org.uk/standards/code/
The role carries on whether at work or not.
I have lost count of the number of times I have helped the public in an emergency. No pay, or recognition. Just doing what one has been trained to do.
When I first met The Wife, she was flabbergasted at the times we would see something happen, i.e. a road accident, and I would ask her to stay in the car whilst I did what I could.
Then when I was involved in a serious accident, one of the first people to stop and help was an A&E consultant on his way to work... (not that I can remember that, I found out a few months later)
Not about paying anyone any more, just laying out the breadth of the role that Nurse or Doctor encapsulates.
If you have a road accident or collapse in the street, a trained Nurse has an obligation to help. Part of the U.K.C.C. Code of Professional Conduct.
If the Nurse ignores the situation, they put themselves at risk of losing their license to practice.
https://www.nmc.org.uk/standards/code/
The role carries on whether at work or not.
I have lost count of the number of times I have helped the public in an emergency. No pay, or recognition. Just doing what one has been trained to do.
When I first met The Wife, she was flabbergasted at the times we would see something happen, i.e. a road accident, and I would ask her to stay in the car whilst I did what I could.
Then when I was involved in a serious accident, one of the first people to stop and help was an A&E consultant on his way to work... (not that I can remember that, I found out a few months later)
Not about paying anyone any more, just laying out the breadth of the role that Nurse or Doctor encapsulates.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
OK.
hifinutt
hifinutt
100% agree
Let’s do a thought experiment... The NHS is short of nurses by a not insignificant percentage (about 40000 in round numbers) and wards have the minimum cover, or less, as a routine. It’s 1 minute to a shift change and you are in the cardiac ward and get terrible chest pain. Are you:
1. Going to scream the place down to get the nurses to start cpr, or
2. Scream through gritted teeth “go home nurse while I wait for your colleague who has been held up”?
Unless your answer is a firm 2, be grateful that nurses accept their duty of care and don’t criticise them for not militantly working to their contract.
1. Going to scream the place down to get the nurses to start cpr, or
2. Scream through gritted teeth “go home nurse while I wait for your colleague who has been held up”?
Unless your answer is a firm 2, be grateful that nurses accept their duty of care and don’t criticise them for not militantly working to their contract.
killie99
pfm Member
My youngest daughter is a nursing student. She finished a 12.5 hour shift on Friday night at 7:30 pm and she started on a 12.5 hour night shift Saturday at 7pm, working in a red zone in ICU both shifts.
My eldest daughter is an FY1 doctor, just finished an 80 hour week, has 1 day off and is rota’d for 70 hours in the coming week. These hours have been the norm for both of them fir the past year. Neither of them is getting any extra money other than their normal salary. Without the dedication and willingness to work hours none of the rest of us would deem acceptable the NHS would collapse. Anyone who thinks a1% pay rise is acceptable for this sort of commitment needs to look at themselves and ask what sort of medical care would you like if you unfortunately find yourself in hospital? Both of my daughters have worked countless hours they have never been paid for in the past year, count yourself lucky they love their jobs and want to help people.
My eldest daughter is an FY1 doctor, just finished an 80 hour week, has 1 day off and is rota’d for 70 hours in the coming week. These hours have been the norm for both of them fir the past year. Neither of them is getting any extra money other than their normal salary. Without the dedication and willingness to work hours none of the rest of us would deem acceptable the NHS would collapse. Anyone who thinks a1% pay rise is acceptable for this sort of commitment needs to look at themselves and ask what sort of medical care would you like if you unfortunately find yourself in hospital? Both of my daughters have worked countless hours they have never been paid for in the past year, count yourself lucky they love their jobs and want to help people.
hifinutt
hifinutt
The best laid plans ...then Julie announces she wants to retire , Ron has a back injury and can't work , betty goes on long term sick but because she is still on full pay you can't employ anyone on her budget
2 years later betty comes back on reduced working and promptly goes off again after 6 months ...
Real situations that all managers will be aware of and nurses have to cover those massive gaps or patients suffer
2 years later betty comes back on reduced working and promptly goes off again after 6 months ...
Real situations that all managers will be aware of and nurses have to cover those massive gaps or patients suffer
blossomchris
I feel better than James Brown
spot on, reality, that is how it is. why do some not get this, tis beyond me
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Unfortunately tories don't consider society "a thing"...
Colin L
High-tech low-life
https://twitter.com/threadreaderapp/status/1368176893053243402?s=21
An extremely good, long post by Richard Murphy, on the national debt, the Tories and the NHS (and thereby the battle for the future of the UK). Well worth reading.
An extremely good, long post by Richard Murphy, on the national debt, the Tories and the NHS (and thereby the battle for the future of the UK). Well worth reading.